00;00;02;14 - 00;00;26;21
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper and biblical truth that transforms our lives. Thank you for joining us here for part two of Lament episode. this week is going to be a little more practical. they're going to answer some questions about how do we deal with this in, in real life.

00;00;26;22 - 00;00;41;06
Brenton
And so, we're just going to jump right back into where we left off last week. And I hope you enjoy it. How can we better lead our kids in this? Or how can we begin to lead our kids in this and.

00;00;41;08 - 00;00;48;02
Chris
When I read that question, I was like, oh yes, that's something I should be doing. I actually.

00;00;48;04 - 00;01;00;26
Michelle
Am, by the way, here. Michelle has two boys, and, Olivia has four girls. So is there is there a different, you know, path that we take here between boys and girls? Yeah.

00;01;00;28 - 00;01;31;18
Chris
well, I feel like with the little ones it's easier, because, you know, they're they physically hurt or they're upset about something that somebody else has done. And I can sit with. I can sit with a little. With a little one in their pain. ride that wave. It's usually a pretty quick wave. and and just model, what it's like to lament, with a, with a big with an older kid.

00;01;31;20 - 00;02;04;18
Chris
I feel like, like modeling and being open and honest about what's going on, with ourselves, to whatever level is appropriate. is pretty important. They need to hear us lament. They need to see us not faking it. but, the question was really convicting to me. I was realizing, like, my kiddo has things to lament also, and it probably would do me some good to to sit with him and ask him and, and guide him in prayer in that and, and encourage him to do the same thing.

00;02;04;20 - 00;02;11;26
Chris
and I'm going to do that now because it's brought to my attention and was this is the perfect timing for us.

00;02;11;29 - 00;02;29;13
Olivia
But yeah, just last week, I, I think Annie was asking me what I was teaching on last Monday night, and I was trying to explain to her and realize I had never used that word with her. I feel like I've told my girls, like, you can tell God anything and you can, you know, share. Even if you're struggling, you can share that with him.

00;02;29;13 - 00;02;47;11
Olivia
But I don't think I've named lemon or explain that. So I started explaining it to Annie, who's seven. and I was trying to think, you know, what could she limit about. And just recently, we've had to well, for the past year, we've had to patch one of her eyes because she's almost blind in one eye. So we have to patch her good eyes.

00;02;47;13 - 00;03;03;09
Olivia
Her bad. I learned how, you know, to see, and she hates it. She has all these sensory struggles, like having a pirate patch on her head feels so uncomfortable and and she can't see anything and is so hard. And we just went to the doctor and they said not. We don't have to do an hour a day now we do three hours a day.

00;03;03;09 - 00;03;19;06
Olivia
And so for the next four months we do three hours a day. And I was like any you can tell God that you hate wearing your patch and you can tell I'm like, God, this is so hard. I don't want to do it like I can't see anything. It's so frustrating. And then you can ask him for help and then, you know, you can begin to just express trust in him.

00;03;19;06 - 00;03;38;12
Olivia
So I was kind of walking her through it, and you could see her, her following me as a seven year old, and you could see just her begin to realize, like, I can talk to God about anything. And, the last couple days of patching have been a little bit better. So maybe she's been. Maybe she's been lamenting, I don't know.

00;03;38;15 - 00;03;41;27
Michelle
Yeah, yeah.

00;03;42;00 - 00;04;08;25
Michelle
Well, I only have things to share. from what not to do. here. Mostly not know what to do there. maybe things I would go back and and do over. You know, I think, the primary just parenting advice that seem to be given to people, at least when I was growing up, 70s and 80s was, you know, if you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about.

00;04;08;27 - 00;04;15;24
Michelle
so, Yeah. so that's how I learned to, Yeah. Give. Yeah.

00;04;16;01 - 00;04;18;05
Brenton
I think there's always a joke in our house.

00;04;18;07 - 00;04;44;11
Michelle
It's a little, It wasn't a joke in my house. but then, unfortunately, I said that a few times to, to my kids when they were younger. They hopefully they don't remember it. but, yeah, I think recognizing, like, when the kids are sad, not just even not just stepping in and and just trying to run through that, we're not going to be sad or, you know, that's not a reason to be sad or anything.

00;04;44;11 - 00;05;04;13
Michelle
Like, just like whatever those emotions are, let's, let's, let's allow them to have them at least in the moment and, and try to talk through them. And why do you feel that way? And what can we do about that rather than just kind of I think our natural response is either because we're aggravated, we're tired, we don't want to deal with it.

00;05;04;13 - 00;05;25;03
Michelle
We think, this is ridiculous. Why are you feeling this way or whatever? We just want to put it. We want to put an end to it, and trying to slow down and to be patient enough to to really ask more like of the why questions and and why why do you feel that way and what what should we do with that feeling?

00;05;25;03 - 00;05;46;14
Michelle
And what would maybe God have us to do with it and all that kind of stuff, which takes more time and and and things. But, instead of just trying to cut that off and it's wrong to feel that way or it's not allowed or those kind of things. And so and again, I'm not talking about this in respected that I did it well.

00;05;46;16 - 00;05;51;22
Michelle
But I have the privilege of hindsight and you know to see it from there.

00;05;51;22 - 00;06;17;28
Brenton
So that's something that that Nikki and I have been working on at home. I mean, we have kids that are from 4 to 11, and so there's a lot of big feelings in our house all the time. And, we've, we found and a lot of this has come from Eucharist that, you know, just the hope, helping them to be open with what they're feeling, because most of the time they don't understand what they're feeling.

00;06;18;00 - 00;06;45;16
Brenton
And that can cause frustration, but it can also cause frustration on the parents. I do like it's it's hard to deal with all those emotions all the time. And so being able to put names to things, helping them through that. And, you know, we had one conversation with one of our kids the other day coming out of a really hard week for our family and, I mean, by the end of it, he, he, I think he had a much better understanding of, of what he was feeling and why.

00;06;45;16 - 00;06;58;11
Brenton
And then, you know, he was able to, like, almost laugh about it after knowing, you know, okay, that that's why that's why I'm acting like this. That's why I'm feeling like this. I've just seen so much fruit come out. Come out of it already.

00;06;58;13 - 00;07;20;12
Michelle
yeah, I think I think trying to, look at things and deal with things as they are rather than how we want them to be. And, you know, yes, there is a room again to get to where we want them to be, where God wants them to be and all. But let's not start there. Let's start with, where are we?

00;07;20;14 - 00;07;41;10
Michelle
You know, when when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God comes. The first question he asks him is, what? Where are you? And I think that that's a great question to ask our kids, instead of making statements sometimes, is to ask them questions like, where are, where are you? What's going on inside of you? Why do you feel that way?

00;07;41;10 - 00;08;04;10
Michelle
And I think that's going to have, in the long run up a lot in the in the short term it might be be better or we think that it's better to simply put a our thumb on it and to squelch out the sadness, the anger, the whatever it is. but in the long run, that's not, and I think our culture is bearing the bears evidence to that testimony to that.

00;08;04;10 - 00;08;23;09
Michelle
But if we can step back and we can say, okay, where are you? And by the way, this is this is what I would suggest that we do not only with our children, but we do with our spouses. our community group members, maybe even the people that we work with. so, yeah.

00;08;23;12 - 00;08;47;02
Brenton
Okay. I want to go to one of our submitted questions, and this is Michelle, something you were touching on, earlier, but essentially the question is, does does guys want us to lament over things that that may seem petty. you know, what we would call first world problems even looks like disappointments or, in the big picture, not a huge deal.

00;08;47;05 - 00;08;54;06
Brenton
But how should we handle those things? Is it is it petty to bring it to God, or is it the right thing to do?

00;08;54;08 - 00;09;29;05
Chris
Yeah, I well, it's such an interesting question because I hear it all the time from clients like, or I run into it a lot where they'll be like, oh, that's not that big of a deal or, you know, somebody else has it worse. And I, I've come at it from so many different ways. I've tried so many different analogies and, so many different examples and all the way up until the, the, the line about Garden of Eden that and once I, once I just it's so simple and once I got to that the like we are grieving everything because of the fall.

00;09;29;07 - 00;09;53;08
Chris
And what we're longing for is the Garden of Eden. And, and every time we get anything that falls short of God's original design, it's painful and it's varying levels of painful. But if it it grieves God, all of it, that it's not the way that he originally designed it. And I, I think it's then it's it's fair game to take to him.

00;09;53;11 - 00;10;12;21
Chris
Also, I think he wants us to come to him. He likes us and he wants to spend time with us and he wants to be near us. And so, and we know that that's part of why he allows suffering, because he wants to draw us near. So if he can draw us near through the little things, then I feel like that brings him joy.

00;10;12;23 - 00;10;25;00
Chris
Oh, she's coming to me again. I'm here. She comes. I'm excited. She's talking to me. That and that can happen on the little things and the big things.

00;10;25;02 - 00;10;48;05
Olivia
I agree. Yeah, just, I, I found myself, a couple weeks ago, I ran over our family cat and. Oh, it was our first pet. And it was a traumatic experience because all the girls were in the car with us, and we loved him dearly. and I found myself just being really sad for a few days, and I did, I lamented.

00;10;48;05 - 00;11;07;10
Olivia
I was like, God, why did you have to let all the girls be in the car like, you know, just asking those questions and and bringing that to the Lord. And I was able to laugh about it after that. I'm lamenting about our cat. But, but I think he does. I think he wants us to talk to him about, you know, anything that feels heavy, just bring it to the Lord.

00;11;07;13 - 00;11;11;09
Olivia
And, it's better than holding it in and not doing that.

00;11;11;16 - 00;11;12;15
Michelle
Yeah, I'm sure.

00;11;12;21 - 00;11;13;28
Brenton
Chris is probably biting a stone.

00;11;14;01 - 00;11;18;14
Michelle
I'm struggling. I'm struggling to empathize with you because you didn't.

00;11;18;14 - 00;11;20;03
Olivia
Meet Reverend Chris?

00;11;20;06 - 00;11;46;05
Michelle
no. I mean, we, the chain loves, animals and loves cats, and we've lost. I can't even count how many at this point. And it is. I mean, it's it's again, it goes back to the to the garden. Death is not, you know, normal. It's not what it's supposed to do to be our reality. And and so whether it's, you know, you know, Jonah lamented over the a plant.

00;11;46;07 - 00;12;11;25
Michelle
so not that, you know, I mean, and God has some things to say about that, but but the great thing about, you know, Joe, Jonah and this is missed as he was talking, he was actually talking to God about it. you know, I think that that illustration is a good one. And I do think, I mean, this is once again, I think we see this in Psalm 77 when an Asaph is actually, you know, he's talking to God about it all of a sudden.

00;12;11;25 - 00;12;37;11
Michelle
I think his his focus changes and then we can see like, yeah, that is a relatively minor thing. And, and, and maybe, maybe we're making a bigger deal of it than we should. And that's not all. That's not always, like I said, for that. But there are times where, you know, they are first world problems. You know, I'm, you know, lamenting that my YouTube TV went out tonight and I can't watch the game or something like that.

00;12;37;13 - 00;13;04;05
Michelle
but, you know, but I think it, it goes back to being real, like, this is, this is what's going on inside of me. And so often we want to we feel bad for feeling bad, and so we don't do anything with it. I shouldn't feel bad about this, so I'm going to just stuff it. Well, that's generally not going to, be a healthy way to, to go about it.

00;13;04;08 - 00;13;21;18
Chris
I did read that, question that came in and she mentioned vacation. And so I just think that it's a perfect example of how we can we can take something, with once you go on vacations with kids, you know, it's really a trip that you're taking with. It's not a.

00;13;21;20 - 00;13;24;17
Michelle
Vacation for publication when you get back. Yes.

00;13;24;19 - 00;13;46;08
Chris
You took a trip with your children present, and, there's just. It just has a different. It just it's different once, once there's children involved. And so, I think is a perfect example. We take that and we lament to God about, our feelings about it. And in this case, I think it was the kids that weren't quite satisfied.

00;13;46;10 - 00;14;05;15
Chris
They can take that and go to God with their dissatisfaction, and then be reminded of the hope that we have of of a new earth that's coming. And then vacation just gets to be vacation. It doesn't have to be heaven. And, I feel like it gets us into the right position. Like, okay, I have heaven coming someday.

00;14;05;15 - 00;14;22;25
Chris
And someday I'll get a trip where I can sleep all night long. Or, you know, someday I'll experience something glorious that will will make this suffering that's happening here not matter quite so much. And so now I can just enjoy it for what it is.

00;14;22;27 - 00;14;39;29
Brenton
okay. So there I have one more submitted question. it is after we lament, do we need to confess and repent of the false feelings or ideas we have about God?

00;14;40;02 - 00;15;09;19
Chris
I have answers, I mean, I think about this kind of thing a lot. So, emotions aren't sinful in and of themselves. so I don't believe that we have to repent of our emotions. I think that when we're in, in lament that God might, prompt us, to change something. And if we were then to, like, resist him, then we have something to lament about, resisting his guidance or his direction in some way.

00;15;09;21 - 00;15;34;18
Chris
and the idea about, like, what is it repenting about false beliefs about God. Our whole Christian walk is about getting a more and more accurate picture of who God really is. so, like, that's what we're doing every step of the way is, oh, he's he's not so much distant and removed. He's actually very near and caring.

00;15;34;21 - 00;15;52;00
Chris
and do we need to I yeah, I guess it comes down to the definition of repent. If we're talking about repentance, like, did I do something sinful? Was I sinning? I think in these two instances, it's not necessarily a sin. But if we're just talking about having a change of of mind, we're changing our mind. I'm not going to believe the old thing.

00;15;52;00 - 00;15;59;23
Chris
I'm going to believe the new thing. Then, yeah, we're repenting, but not as if it were a sin, if that makes any sense.

00;15;59;25 - 00;16;22;06
Brenton
Yeah. And I think that's that's a good point. I don't know if this is more from, like, we feel like we've we've gone too far with what we've said to God or we've, you know, thought the thought wrong things in a sinful way through that experience. Is it is it right to, you know, come back and repent of that?

00;16;22;06 - 00;16;24;05
Brenton
And I think, yeah, I think you've answered past.

00;16;24;06 - 00;16;27;28
Chris
That one onto the pastor.

00;16;28;00 - 00;17;12;28
Michelle
Well, first of all, I think we have to recognize that I would I would say the majority of the lament Psalms and the lament passages in the Bible include some form of repentance and a lot of times the lament is the lament over sin and the effects and impact of sin, whether personal or corporate communal sin. So, repentance is often going to, to, to be the, at least a part of, well, man, I would, you know, talk about the emotions aren't sinful in and of themselves, but what we do with those emotions, certainly can be and, you know, I've talked about this in terms of light and dark or spirit

00;17;12;28 - 00;17;37;00
Michelle
in the flesh. Maybe the better. Libby and I have had some discussion about this, but are we are we going to walk in the spirit and toward the Lord in those emotions? Are we going to walk in the flesh in a way from him? And so that's that's where I think we've got to look at. And I do think, I think we actually even see some repentance from Asaph in Psalm 77 when he says, verse 13, your way, O God is holy.

00;17;37;02 - 00;18;00;23
Michelle
You know it. Your way is the right way, not my way. So he's he's maybe not repenting for his emotions and his feelings, but he is coming to that place in his mind where, okay, you get to decide how things go, not me. and so there's at least a humility, that we that we need, we need to come to.

00;18;00;24 - 00;18;21;10
Michelle
And, you know, the end of the lament is trust or hope, but the trust aspect of it is like, I'm going to trust you despite my circumstances and despite how I feel about maybe what you are doing or aren't doing. So I don't I don't think we should divorce lament from repentance. It's going to be integral to it in some way.

00;18;21;10 - 00;18;25;11
Michelle
Most of the time it's helpful. You know, we think that they're leaving.

00;18;25;14 - 00;18;47;24
Olivia
Yeah. I just I don't think we should be surprised if in the process of lamenting, the Holy Spirit prompts us to repent, you know, as we, bring those things to the Lord. I think that I was thinking about Psalm 13, because that's the one I taught on, but similar, I mean, just a shift. And I think in the beginning he's questioning, where God has been like, how long will you forget me?

00;18;47;24 - 00;19;11;27
Olivia
Forever. But then at the end he says, your steadfast love. I mean, it's like he is repenting in a sense. Maybe not repenting is the right word there, but but he's his. His thoughts of God have shifted in the course of six verses. so I don't think we should be surprised if the Holy Spirit prompts us to repent of things as we're, you know, bringing them to the Lord.

00;19;11;29 - 00;19;44;13
Brenton
Good. Okay, so we are coming up on an hour here, so I'm going to give each of you the last word here. I'm going to throw out two questions and answer whatever you want. But, first of all, what steps would you suggest to someone who has never made this a practice in their life? And then also, would would you suggest someone kind of going back into their past and digging up old things to lament, or is this something to move forward with, with, with new things like, yeah.

00;19;44;13 - 00;19;49;26
Brenton
Any advice you have for either of those?

00;19;49;28 - 00;20;09;12
Olivia
I feel like for the first question, just practice. I mean, just start start lamenting. And it might feel a little awkward at first. It might feel, weird or uncomfortable, but you you'll get the hang of it as you keep talking to God. and it'll become more of a natural practice in your life, so just practice it.

00;20;09;12 - 00;20;36;22
Olivia
And then, what was the second question? oh. Going back to your past, I mean, if I think that there's something significant that you haven't processed with the Lord, that is painful, I would definitely recommend lamenting that and talking to him about it. I don't think you need to sit down and try to conjure up old things that you know, you haven't thought of in a while, but if there are hard things that you're you think, well, I've never actually expressed how I felt to God.

00;20;36;25 - 00;20;40;03
Olivia
I think that would be incredibly beneficial.

00;20;40;05 - 00;20;41;18
Brenton
Okay.

00;20;41;20 - 00;21;08;01
Chris
I think I would just add to the first part, like, how do you get started? I definitely agree with Olivia, but also, there's plenty of psalms that we can follow along with, and we can just read those along. We can make those our own, as we pray those to God. There's, some, music available for like, songs of lament that people have written more recently.

00;21;08;03 - 00;21;31;29
Chris
and that can be really helpful as you just practice like, you know, ride the coattails of other people who have done this and then learn to make it your own. and, oh, I knew there was something, I think it's I think it can be really helpful if you've never had a human in your life to sit and listen to your hard things.

00;21;32;02 - 00;22;06;08
Chris
it can be very helpful to find someone who's willing to do that with you. because, like I was saying before, that's that's how our brains are wired. If we have that experience with another human, it's going to make it, I think leaps and bounds easier to imagine God's response in that way to, to be open to God, experiencing, to be open to experiencing God in that way, that he's listening to us as we are lamenting, we're not just praying, sending our prayers way up high and hoping that he happens to have his ear torn turn towards us.

00;22;06;08 - 00;22;14;13
Chris
But but knowing that he's right there and he's he's listening. That comes a lot easier when you've had that with a person.

00;22;14;15 - 00;22;21;27
Brenton
As you talk through, praying through Psalms, is there any you'd suggest any of you guys?

00;22;21;29 - 00;22;47;03
Michelle
I put a list in the handout on Sunday so they could refer to that. Right. but yeah, I could even just Google honestly a little man Psalms and it would give it to you. But the handout had, majority of them, I, would just add those are great. great advice there. I, I think, the book that we talked about, Mark real, would be a great place to start.

00;22;47;06 - 00;23;18;29
Michelle
it's, it's not terribly, terribly deep. I mean, so you're not going to get in over your head on that, but again, that's, dark clouds. Deep mercy. I, I do think, and I just want to affirm what Michelle particularly as just said, is doing this in community with someone or someone's, you know, many of the Psalms or lament or our communal Psalms lament, but they're all in the Bible for, for, you know, the Israelites to sing.

00;23;18;29 - 00;23;49;24
Michelle
They were singing them together. you know, and, you know, this, this idea that we have today of our own kind of private, you know, spiritual walk with the Lord would have been a little bit foreign to, the people in the Old Testament, even in the, the New Testament Christians. And so, and I think that isolation is one of the reasons that we get ourselves into the difficult or we find ourselves maybe in these difficult, difficult places.

00;23;49;24 - 00;24;10;08
Michelle
And so trying to move out of that and to do it, together, is most helpful, one of the most helpful things. And then you mentioned about going back and digging up the past, I would give a caution about anybody doing that by trying to do that by themselves. you, you probably need a guide.

00;24;10;08 - 00;24;38;27
Michelle
And that's where our counseling ministry comes in into play. Elders, pastors, staff members. we have some, you know, licensed therapists like we did have Michelle, I guess that's coming to an end, sadly. But, there are some other options, to Christian believers. and so having somebody to help you work through that, it's really hard to to, I mean, I, I would have been able to do it.

00;24;38;27 - 00;24;43;16
Michelle
I'm on my own, so. Yeah, for whatever that's worth.

00;24;43;19 - 00;24;50;03
Brenton
Okay. Well, good. This was a great conversation. I really appreciate you guys coming.

00;24;50;05 - 00;24;50;15
Olivia
Thanks for.

00;24;50;15 - 00;24;51;01
Chris
Having us.

00;24;51;03 - 00;25;02;11
Brenton
Yeah, it's really helpful. and I know we've we've this is one of the subjects that we keep saying, yeah, we should do we should do an episode on that. And here we did it. There we go. Yeah, yeah.

00;25;02;16 - 00;25;03;12
Michelle
Okay.

00;25;03;14 - 00;25;14;07
Brenton
All right, well, thank you for listening. We will, be back again when the John series starts. So this is, we're not we're not back consistently yet, but.

00;25;14;09 - 00;25;21;26
Michelle
we've got two, two more weeks, in Psalms that we've got, standalone. So it'll be about another three, three weeks before we're back.

00;25;21;29 - 00;25;36;24
Brenton
Yep. All right. We will talk to you then. Thanks for joining us today. this concludes our, two part episode. on that, really hope you guys found it beneficial. And we will be back with you on a regular schedule soon.