00;00;42;13 - 00;00;49;03
Brenton
Welcome back to further. I am Brenton Grim. Yeah. This week we have Nate Todd.

00;00;49;06 - 00;00;49;21
Nate
Hello.

00;00;49;22 - 00;00;53;25
Brenton
He preached in Burlington. Welcome. Matt Mitchell, you preached in Danville.

00;00;53;26 - 00;00;54;13
Matt
Greetings.

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Brenton
Yeah. How you doing, guys?

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Nate
You're doing well. How are you?

00;00;57;12 - 00;01;19;08
Brenton
I'm doing great. Yeah. I, apologize for the late release here. This is going to come out on a Thursday. I was at a conference this week. Just got home last night. We were talking about doing it, remotely. Which probably wouldn't have been ideal anyway. And then Matt got sick, so. Yeah. Bummer. How are you feeling?

00;01;19;11 - 00;01;21;22
Matt
I'm feeling better. Not hundred percent better.

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Brenton
Well, I'm glad you could make it in today.

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Matt
I am too.

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Brenton
Stay away from me.

00;01;26;06 - 00;01;29;03
Matt
You on the other side of the table.

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Brenton
All right. Well, I feel like we kind of already did this podcast before we started recording. So, we had some conversation about this. So I think we're going to start by just kind of clarifying some terms from, from this passage. I want to see, here, I'll just say this out. Define walking in the light.

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Brenton
Both of you.

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Nate
You want to go first, Pastor Matt, or would you like for me to.

00;01;58;17 - 00;02;26;02
Matt
I'll give it a shot. Walking in the light is not walking in darkness. There we go. So I would say some. Someone who's walking in the light is a born again regenerate. Has the Holy Spirit believer in Jesus Christ? And yeah, I would say that's walking in the light. Nothing between you and God. Open book.

00;02;26;05 - 00;02;32;24
Matt
Open heart. Open life. And, your sins have been confessed and. Okay. Pardon your sense because of Christ.

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Brenton
So let me follow up with this. Is is walking in the light? A state that you're in, or is it an action that you do?

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Nate
Yes.

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Matt
Yes. Both. Yes.

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Nate
I think to walk in the light. You I mean matter. We talked about this. You have to be a believer. And so it would be walking in the light. You are a believer. So that's an implied state. And then walking in the light. You're actively also pursuing a relationship with the Lord. Pursuing to live in righteousness. And then also, you know, Matt and I both talked about confessing sin first John one.

00;03;11;13 - 00;03;22;20
Nate
And so I think it's both it's a state that you are in. And then it's also action because we aren't just supposed to just sit around and do nothing. We're supposed to be pursuing the Lord. So I think it's both.

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Brenton
Okay. So and this was kind of the conversation we had before. Is it possible to to be a believer but still walk in in the dark?

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Nate
So if you want to talk about the condition, the, you know, the, the state of being a believer. So in the sense of yes, you are a believer, you are walking in the light. You have had the light come in and illuminate things. You can see, the way that you should be walking. And so you have the light in front of you to guide you.

00;03;56;02 - 00;04;22;09
Nate
So yes, you can be a believer, but then also you can choose not to walk in the light. I mean, first John talks about if we say we are without sin, we're calling out a liar. So we obviously have sinned. And Matt and I both alluded to times in our life to where we knew the light or we had the light, we knew how to walk, and yet we were still choosing, to not walk in the light as far as the action part of it.

00;04;22;09 - 00;04;33;01
Nate
We were choosing to have sin in our lives. And even embracing that, at different points in our lives. So, yeah. Does that answer your question, Britton?

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Brenton
Yeah, I think so. Matt. You have any thoughts?

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Matt
Yeah. I think the main thing that I keep circling back around to is we've got these passages in Scripture where in the Gospel of John, Jesus is talking to this group of Jews, mixed company and disciples and crowd and Pharisees and, we'd be ignorant to say that these people didn't believe in Yahweh, and some of them to actually love Yahweh.

00;04;57;13 - 00;05;25;20
Matt
But Jesus is saying, I'm the light. Like what you have so far is incomplete. I'm the fullness of what it means to worship God. But then in the New Testament, we've got these great letters. Like we already mentioned first, John. He's writing that to churches, to Christians. I mentioned Ephesians chapter five, which is a great passage about light and darkness in my sermon, but it's written to a group of believers, church in Ephesus.

00;05;25;23 - 00;05;48;21
Matt
And the Apostle Paul is, you know, using language like, for at one time you were darkness, but now you're a light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. So it's like, hey, you're light. You're saved. Walk in that light. And then, it says, take no part, and unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

00;05;48;23 - 00;06;06;00
Matt
Like that commands there. Because, you know, we have the tendency, even though we have the light now and we're saved, we still kind of want to shrink back into the dark sometimes. Or we can relate with that. And, and then he goes on, says, but when anything's exposed by light becomes visible for anything that becomes visible is light.

00;06;06;01 - 00;06;25;08
Matt
Therefore it says, awake, a sleeper arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you. And you could preach that to unbelievers like, hey, wake up. You know, let bring your sin in the dark and believe in Jesus and what he's done. But it was written, this is written to unbelievers. Excuse me. This is written to believers in the church.

00;06;25;08 - 00;06;51;09
Matt
And so it's like, stop living in the dark, your light. If you are late in a walk in the light. So I don't know if that helps, but I would just say we are really fickle people and weak, and we like to hide in the dark. And that's why it's just good to be reminded in a podcast and sermons, small groups, time by ourselves with the Lord that there's things we need to keep bringing to him.

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Matt
Bringing the light.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah. As you were talking there, just going back a little bit before that in Ephesians. It it sounds, you know, and it would still be in the same context here. But Ephesians four says to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life, and it's corrupt, through deceitful desires and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind and to put on the new self created after the likeness of God, and in truth, righteousness and holiness.

00;07;18;02 - 00;07;41;21
Brenton
So, I mean, he's certainly talking to believers here, but, you know, it it almost kind of comes back to the term we talked about a lot here, which is the already and not yet. So these things are true of us, but in in some sense. But but then we, you know, we need to, as much as we can step into that as well.

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Brenton
There's a reality there that we're maybe not living in accordance with. So, you know, we have a job to do to, to get to that point. So in that way, is it would you say it's it's a part of the process of sanctification?

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Matt
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say the process of sanctification was progressive conformity and the image of God, you know, an image of Christ, us growing closer and closer to God. Yeah. That's that's a non stop. I've got some things in the dark and I'm bringing it back in the light. And this can happen Sunday to Sunday, big or small.

00;08;17;03 - 00;08;38;20
Matt
But I would say it typically I think culminates in weeks, months, even years of bad habits and sins. And, you know, we quench the spirit in our life. And it's sometimes God gives us a big wakeup call and it's like, you know, maybe we weren't a believer at all, but maybe we were. But it's just I have not been following God for a while, but today's the day, you know?

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Matt
Yeah. There's that warning in the Old Testament, but the author of Hebrews picks up on it today. If you hear his voice, do not harden your heart. And it's like, that's where everybody, like everybody here who is sinful, which is all of us. Like, if the Lord is speaking, don't harden your heart, but listen.

00;08;57;13 - 00;09;24;04
Brenton
Yeah, well, there's the whole kind of academic side of this, this conversation of like, you know, what does this mean? What does this mean for our salvation? Where we saved early, where we saved recently. I think that, you know, Nate you brought up first John. One. And I mean even reading into to like John just seems to be more black and white with this.

00;09;24;10 - 00;09;47;18
Brenton
You know, in chapter two he says, whoever says I know him but does not keep his commandments is a liar. And the truth is not in him. And that, you know, that is that is coming out of him talking about walking in the light, you know, same author is the as the gospel. We're going through. I'm assuming, you know, he kind of means the same things by his terms there.

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Brenton
Yeah. There's just some statements in there that are, Yeah, hard to hard to get past. And that's not too far before he's talking about all the Antichrist that walked away. And so like, yeah, there's I think there's a seriousness to this, but but so that's the academic side. But then you take it to the practical and I think Matt you're hitting that well that is like you know now are you walking in the light.

00;10;11;07 - 00;10;15;06
Brenton
And if you're not start walking in the light like there's a call there.

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Matt
Yeah. And if I were to add that to just that. Yeah. He's saying if you're, if you're not practicing the truth, if you're not walk in the light. If you say you have no sin, you're a liar. But then he reminds us, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just. And we have an advocate with the father, Jesus the righteous, you know.

00;10;32;10 - 00;10;45;18
Matt
And so it's always like, stop duping yourself. You need to acknowledge your sin. But if you do, Jesus hung on the cross and died and was resurrected, you know, for our justification and our forgiveness.

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Nate
So, yeah, in something you said, Matt, before we started recording in here, you said whether you're an unbeliever or believer, either one same response. It's the same Jesus. Confess your sins, ask for forgiveness. And so, you know, you can get caught up on these kinds of conversations. But at the end, at the end result, and it's good to have these conversations.

00;11;04;18 - 00;11;14;15
Nate
It's good to know what we're reading and how to interpret the text. But at the same time, the response still needs to be the same. Run to Jesus and just, receive the grace that's available.

00;11;14;19 - 00;11;15;18
Matt
Yeah.

00;11;15;20 - 00;11;42;01
Brenton
Yeah. Okay. Matt, you described, how people who are still lost in the dark can spin, deflect and protect when exposed by the light. Why do you think so many people, even in the church, choose to stay in the dark? Like what it may be? The question is, you know, how do we how do we help people out of that?

00;11;42;03 - 00;11;44;13
Brenton
How do we help ourselves out of that?

00;11;44;16 - 00;12;06;19
Matt
Yeah. Great question. Yes. Our default is like I've got to protect my own skin. I don't have to be able to know this. You know, a lack of humility. You know, a pride or ego gets in the way. But I think the core of it comes down to, I think, yes, sin is enticing. Sin is fun for, you know, a season, a moment or whatever.

00;12;06;21 - 00;12;34;07
Matt
But I think it's more a fear of rejection. If this stuff comes into the light, what am I going to have to give up? You know, job, family, you know, marriage. Like, who's going to reject me? Who's going to turn on me if I, if I, if they really knew? And I just think that's one of the biggest lies from the pit of hell because, well, yes, the world actually does treat you that way.

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Matt
Like there's these like, there's consequences for sin, period. But the world will reject you and just be like, we'll find somebody else, you know, that, is pretending better. But the church is supposed to be a place. If not, if we're caught, like, ever caught. It's like it's a different thing, but, it's like that's we're found out.

00;12;56;05 - 00;13;14;21
Matt
Somebody has to bring it to our attention. But if we bring it into the light and like, we're being humble and God's the one leading us to this, hopefully, if we're part of a healthy church, healthy community, we'll be met by people who accept us and say, hey, I'm a sinner too. I needed Jesus to die in the cross for me too.

00;13;14;23 - 00;13;33;26
Matt
I need him every day. And you're forgiven because of what God has done for you. And now let's don't walk in the dark anymore. Let's walk in the light. So I would say we spin and deflect and protect because we think deep down we're going to be rejected. I can relate with that. And I be here.

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Matt
So what you guys, if you guys would agree or add to that?

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Brenton
Well, I was going to actually take this back a little bit to your personal stories. You know, both of you on on Sunday talked briefly about about your stories. In, in that time, I'm wondering if you guys, you can kind of expand on these a little bit on your personal stories and what, what that process was like for you.

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Brenton
And you know, what was specifically stopping you guys from from walking in the light.

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Nate
So for me specifically, you know, the different idols in my life, the things that that I really was holding tight to, you know, I pursued those things. And so not wanting to give those idols up, those things that, those things that I was indulging in and, and really, I enjoy doing for a period of time, I mean, since fun for a little while.

00;14;32;28 - 00;14;57;06
Nate
Otherwise, we wouldn't want to do it. And so, the kinds of things that I was indulging in, things that, just had a grip on me. But at the same time, I knew that, I knew that I wasn't a slave to them, because, you know, all that time where I was, you know, having that sinful lifestyle, I do believe that I was saved.

00;14;57;06 - 00;15;31;03
Nate
And so, I know that they didn't have a hold of me, but at the same time, I was choosing to continue to walk in them. And the reason for not bringing them to the light, a lot of fear. A fear of what would happen. So one of my, one of my idols is, I want to look good, and I want to, I want to I have a fear of man, but but really, that fear man comes down to me protecting myself and me wanting to look good and me wanting to feel good.

00;15;31;10 - 00;15;51;07
Nate
And so when you have to bring all this stuff out into the light, you experience a lot of discomfort. And so that was something that I definitely didn't want to, there's another idol of mine, comfort. And so when you bring all this stuff up, you experience a lot of discomfort. And, I was just afraid of what the consequences were going to be for the that sin.

00;15;51;07 - 00;16;12;16
Nate
And so, but God, in all of his mercy and the people in my life that, like I said, I was met with love and grace and mercy and, God is just so good. And so it's just an encouragement for those of you who are possibly living in sin, and you have those things in your life that you do need to bring to the light.

00;16;12;18 - 00;16;17;05
Nate
There is grace, love and mercy available, so I would encourage you to do so.

00;16;17;08 - 00;16;31;24
Brenton
Yeah, let's let's walk through that, that process a little bit for you. You know, when when you decided to, to make the change, was it hard?

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Nate
Yeah. So, yeah, it was that's not a I can sit here and say right now that easy.

00;16;41;11 - 00;16;42;03
Matt
Breezy should have done it.

00;16;42;03 - 00;16;59;01
Nate
Yesterday. That process of, things coming to the light. I could sit here and say, yeah, it was the best thing that ever happened. And it was. I mean, that really was a time in my life when all this stuff was brought to light and the Lord was chipping away, and he was working on my heart. That was painful.

00;16;59;04 - 00;17;20;21
Nate
That was a hard experience, especially when I just said, you know, that one of my idols is comfort. And so that was a really painful experience. But we can't grow on more comfortable. And so there's been so much growth, so much healing from it. And it was definitely necessary and it needed to happen. And so yeah, let's not skip over the fact that all of that stuff was really, really hard.

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Brenton
I would maybe suggest that it wasn't all that comfortable for you either to be to be hiding that much.

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Nate
No, no it was. Yeah. And that's having it.

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Brenton
Feels easier at that time. Yeah.

00;17;31;02 - 00;17;54;25
Nate
Having to lie and having to, to walk in that hiding. It's it's really hard. And I talked about John 1010 in my message. And the thief, he comes to kill, steal and destroy. And so when you're living in that sin and you're embracing that sin, things are just your your joy, your, peace, the the relationship that you have with the Lord and with other people.

00;17;54;26 - 00;18;24;15
Nate
Those are just they're compromised and they there's stealing, there's killing, there's destroying going on. And that's just not a good place to be. And so that there's there's hope and there's joy and there's life on the other end. But it is a process. But that's why we have the church to help in that process, to come alongside and to encourage one another and to say there is hope, there is peace, and we will help you walk through that.

00;18;24;17 - 00;18;26;14
Brenton
That's good. What about you Matt.

00;18;26;16 - 00;18;50;02
Matt
Yeah. Thinking about my own story. Most of it for me came down to I agree with everything Nate just said. And in my own story I'm thinking of my time in high school when I was not walking with the Lord, but I was a professing believer. I do think I had the Holy Spirit was just quenching the spirit big time.

00;18;50;04 - 00;19;17;10
Matt
But I knew that following God was right, like it was what I ought to be doing. But just thinking that something was right and what I ought to be doing wasn't enough motivation to get me there. And it took me, really, it took a a work of God to show me that my sin wasn't actually that great.

00;19;17;13 - 00;19;51;13
Matt
It was actually, just a ton of brokenness. And, the fun had kind of run out. But it wasn't until I started following the Lord that I was I realized that it was like, it is. I don't just have a piece and I'm doing better because it's the right thing, but now I actually have a this unbroken relationship, this fellowship with the living God again, you know, and like Psalm 63 says, your steadfast love is better than life.

00;19;51;15 - 00;20;12;23
Matt
And that's what I began to discover. It wasn't like, that's what I discovered. And then I repented. It was like I repented, but then it was like God was gracious enough to show me that, hey, this is having a relationship with me and walking closely with me. What I experienced there, that's so much better than living in the dark.

00;20;12;25 - 00;20;20;14
Matt
So, Yeah, just it's the right thing. I'll get to it eventually. That was not enough of a motivator to give me the change.

00;20;20;14 - 00;20;40;00
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. And we, you know, we we talked about, a little bit before this too. We probably should have turned the mics on earlier. The, the conversation of, you know, when were we actually saved? Because, you know, we growing up when we did, we're all about the same age. There was a lot of idols to walk.

00;20;40;06 - 00;20;41;23
Brenton


00;20;41;26 - 00;20;44;02
Matt
Modification Bible school. Say the prayer with me.

00;20;44;08 - 00;21;08;03
Brenton
Yeah. It was very heavy in the four laws at that point. And so, you know, I think it does leave a lot of us kind of millennials with that question of like, when was I saved? Because I actually come at this from a different perspective than you guys, because I don't believe that I was actually saved until, you know, junior, senior year of college when I actually started seeing the desires in myself change.

00;21;08;03 - 00;21;17;13
Brenton
I think before that it had been a lot of like, yeah, if you're convicted over these things, but how much of that is my parents? How much of that is just sitting in church every week in here and I'm doing the wrong thing?

00;21;17;13 - 00;21;19;10
Matt
Sure.

00;21;19;12 - 00;21;34;16
Brenton
And so, you know, ultimately, probably irrelevant to to the conversation, but I think that this, this conversation does come up. A lot of, you know, when was my actual conversion? So, yeah, just. Yeah. Interesting interesting to talk about.

00;21;34;16 - 00;21;55;13
Matt
No, that's that's really good. And you're right, we were talking about this before the podcast, before the mics were turned on. And, a quote I heard probably within the last year or two of a guy, that I respect, that he just made a comment and said, it's a good question to ask. Like, when did the sun come up, you know, or when did the light come up?

00;21;55;20 - 00;22;16;19
Matt
But it's a better question to ask. Is it up now? Yeah. And it's like, you know, that goes full circle to the what we were talking about earlier in the podcast. But it's like if you're in the dark and you're an unbeliever or you're in the dark and you're a believer, it's like the same response. It's the same response, God's calling you to come into the light today.

00;22;16;22 - 00;22;30;26
Matt
Yeah. And are you are you walking with him today? And that's that's a more important question. This. Absolutely. When did it happen? Was that legitimate and did it and not saying we don't need to ask those questions. I do think it's good to examine our lives. But yeah, what's going on today?

00;22;30;29 - 00;22;57;02
Brenton
Okay. Yeah. Another thing, Matt, that you had said is, you know, the quote was they don't turn over a new leaf or make some tweaks when someone believes they go from lost in the dark to found in the light. And, you know, I think my question here is, why is this so important for us to realize, and not only for the the person as a new believer who's going through that process, but for us as we minister to people.

00;22;57;05 - 00;23;09;11
Brenton
Why is that? That idea so important for us to, to grasp as we, as we work with people through these struggles?

00;23;09;13 - 00;23;50;10
Matt
Yeah. I'd love for you guys to add to this, too. I think the main reason is because our faith and church, it can so easily just turn into, moralism or works righteousness, you know, like what makes you right before God is, like, roll up your sleeves and get it done, start doing the right stuff. And but if we don't start with Christ crucified, on our behalf and Christ risen on our behalf, and then somebody realizes, whoa, like, I don't actually contribute anything to my salvation.

00;23;50;12 - 00;24;07;03
Matt
I'm justified because of what Christ has done. And that's. And then I get the Holy Spirit, and then I have these new desires. If we don't start there, we are setting people up for serious failure. And then it's it's too much to bear when we are like, yeah, I'm going to get things right. And, you know, you know, do things differently.

00;24;07;03 - 00;24;29;12
Matt
And, we, we get to the habits before we've covered the core doctrines of the faith and what we believe about Christ. And, he's you're going to fail and you are going to sin again. And there are going to be things. And if you don't have a good belief system or theology of the atonement, you're done.

00;24;29;12 - 00;24;33;22
Matt
You know, it's that will not sustain you. You'll flake out and you'll go find something else.

00;24;33;25 - 00;24;52;25
Nate
Yeah, yeah. There's a there's a pretty famous, quote. And, I don't even know where it originated from, but I've heard Chris say it before, Pastor Chris. And he said, Jesus didn't come to make bad men good. He came to make dead men alive. And so just, it's not about just doing good things. Yeah. We should pursue righteousness.

00;24;52;25 - 00;25;10;14
Nate
We should put on and we should put off. Yeah, but it's really about just being absolutely, utterly amazed by the grace that you have received. And and as a response of that, living in that grace, walking in that grace, standing in awe of what Jesus did for you, then it's like, I want to live my life for you.

00;25;10;16 - 00;25;21;22
Nate
And that's that's the way that we need to be looking at it. And that's how we as we disciple others. It's not let's just do do things better. It's at a response of the grace. Let's let's walk with him.

00;25;21;24 - 00;25;43;09
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. Chris talked about this, at least in my last week, too. Just the idea as we, minister to people that are our main goal is not to pull them out of sin, necessarily. It's not just, hey, you're doing this wrong. You need to you need to stop doing this. It's primarily, you know, bring them to Jesus.

00;25;43;09 - 00;26;08;00
Brenton
And then we're going to work on this in. And so yeah, I think it's it's such an important thing to to realize as we as we work with other people that, you know, grace has to come first in here because without without Christ, without the, you know, walking in the light, they have no power over that sin. Anyway, so what do we gain if if, if the sin stops?

00;26;08;00 - 00;26;13;00
Brenton
But but they're still in a broken or broken relationship with God, so.

00;26;13;03 - 00;26;42;14
Matt
Yeah, but and if I could add on to that, I'm sure it's been talked about in the podcast and we're gonna keep talking about it. But like the Pharisees were the epitome of that. It's like the external sins, like you couldn't get him with external sins, right? But it was the inward motive. Yeah. Because like, according to like Paul even says, you know, in Philippians three, righteousness according to law, blameless, you know, but he was like all that was rubbish and meant nothing because you have Christ at the center and you have the spirit.

00;26;42;17 - 00;26;47;00
Matt
And, so yeah, just,

00;26;47;02 - 00;27;14;28
Brenton
Yeah. Speaking to the Pharisees, Nate, you you describe salvation as the light comes on, or better yet, the light comes in. You know, lately we've we've talked about how people can often think they're saved for a number of reasons, when in fact, they aren't, and, you know, especially we see this with the Pharisees. What what helps us recognize whether we've really experienced that type of transformation or not.

00;27;15;00 - 00;27;44;17
Nate
Yeah. I think that we can ask ourselves some questions. You know, do I desire to be saved? John 637. Jesus won't turn you away. So do I desire to be saved? Do I desire to have that relationship with him? Romans ten nine. Do you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord? I think a lot of times it's easy to go fast on that verse of of confess with your mouth and believe in your heart.

00;27;44;17 - 00;28;02;11
Nate
But what do you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord? So is Jesus the Lord of your life, or do you desire that he's the Lord of your life? And then do you believe in the gospel? Do you believe that, you were a sinner that deserved deserve God's wrath? But, Jesus lived a perfect life.

00;28;02;12 - 00;28;20;17
Nate
He died for you, and he was raised from from the grave so that you can have life. So do you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead? Have you done that? And then do you have a desire for Jesus to pursue him and to pursue relationship with him?

00;28;20;20 - 00;28;44;13
Nate
We're all going to sin. We're all going to live this imperfect life, this side of glory. But is it your heart's desire to pursue the Lord? And so if you're still battling, still questioning some of those things, still wondering, then go back to Romans ten nine and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord Jesus. I want you to be my Lord and believe in the gospel.

00;28;44;13 - 00;28;47;06
Nate
Believe that he did that for you and you'll be saved.

00;28;47;14 - 00;29;04;00
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. I think the lordship piece is so important because it's, you know, Jesus as our Lord is us confessing that Jesus has the right to tell us what to do right. And and we want to be under submission of that.

00;29;04;02 - 00;29;29;23
Matt
The way I've, found it helpful to narrow it down is like it. He here's just a really basic way to know me as a believer. Do they have, remorse or, you know, contrition over their sin? But not just that, but an appreciation for the gospel, like the appreciation for what Christ has done for them. Yeah.

00;29;29;25 - 00;29;49;21
Matt
You know, it's like I'm sorry or broken over my sin, genuinely. But I'm also genuinely appreciative of what Jesus has done for me. And if you meet anybody that's like that and it's like they're not trying to spin and they're not trying to like make excuses for their sin, but they're sorry for it. And then it's they also understand what Jesus has done for them.

00;29;49;21 - 00;30;08;13
Matt
Like lean into that and remind him what Jesus has done and that this like, they don't have to carry around guilt for that anymore. But someone who's not a believer, it's like. Why do I need Jesus? Why do I need somebody on the cross? You know, it wasn't that bad of a deal, you know? That makes it so obvious.

00;30;08;20 - 00;30;33;20
Brenton
Well, and I think that to, to a large extent, like, if you're asking the question that that is, reason for for optimism, they're like, if you are actually convicted about this enough to be, you know, concerned with the answer to that, that is an indication in you that, but yeah, yeah, the Spirit's working on you.

00;30;33;21 - 00;31;00;19
Brenton
That's right. Nate, you also quoted from first John one, and we've already talked about it a little bit, but, you you emphasized the confession as a part of walking in the light for both of you, what does healthy confession and accountability look like in the life of a believer?

00;31;00;21 - 00;31;27;24
Nate
I think it's good to, kind of do an inventory, look at your life and, Psalm 139 2324 says, search me, O Lord, and know my heart. Try my, try me and know my thoughts, and see if there's any grievous way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. And so, even if you're not dealing with a blatant sin in your life, I think it's good to go before the Lord and say, is there anything?

00;31;27;27 - 00;31;47;06
Nate
Is there anything in my life that needs to be brought to the light? Is there any way that I can be more like you, Lord? And so help me see that? And, and then preach the gospel to yourself. Take that to him. Ask for forgiveness and know that as a believer that, that your sins are forgiven.

00;31;47;09 - 00;32;07;19
Nate
And so that. And then, I, I'm big on accountability. Having, I talked about this on Sunday, but having that person in your life, a godly person who is going to point you to righteousness, who is not going to condone your sin, is not going to be okay with you continuing to live in your sin.

00;32;07;21 - 00;32;26;26
Nate
But who is going to meet you with Grace? Who is going to remind you of the gospel? But then also, say, let's work on this together and it's in the light. And, we're going to we're going to do the best we can to continue to walk in the light.

00;32;26;28 - 00;32;46;21
Matt
Yeah, I totally agree with everything they just said. And it just makes me think of James 516 therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. And I've got a, different church traditions. It's like you'll go to a confessional and confess to a priest or pastor. And I think that's fantastic.

00;32;46;23 - 00;33;08;08
Matt
But it's also, like in our tradition, we would like, lean heavily on this verse and just say, hey, we're the priesthood of all believers. This version says, confess your sins to one another. Someone else who's who's, a believer that can not because they're the ones that can actually forgive sin, but they're the ones who can remind you of the gospel.

00;33;08;08 - 00;33;27;20
Matt
Just like Nate said, and the one who can forgive sin. And there's something powerful about telling someone else, and then someone be able to tell you, hey, you're forgiven. And the reason I know that is because it's what the Bible says. Yeah, it's what God's testimony, is saying to us. And, yeah, there's something powerful about that.

00;33;27;20 - 00;33;54;08
Matt
And I can encourage people to end of my sermon. This wasn't part of my notes, but just like any pastor on staff, any staff member, elder, deacon, spouse, somebody who's, you know, community group leader, all those people would love to hear some. But it it's having a hard time and just needs to confess to somebody like, here's some stuff I'm going through and I need to, bring to God, but also bring to somebody else.

00;33;54;10 - 00;33;58;18
Matt
They would just be so welcomed. We all need that.

00;33;58;21 - 00;34;25;18
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, that just so nobody thinks we're Catholic here. But, you know, I, I think that the, the practice of, of confession, you know, is I love that that, you know, that we would make that a tradition and something that we should constantly, constantly be doing. I think the thing to remember is that no one that, you know, no one, no other person other than Jesus can absolve you from your sin.

00;34;25;22 - 00;34;47;26
Brenton
So we're not looking to them to absolve us. We're looking to them as accountability. And, you know, as James says, we confess it to one another to bring things into the light. Right. So, yeah, we we get our forgiveness through, through Christ alone. But it's so important to do this in community. Yeah. So, Yeah. Great.

00;34;48;03 - 00;34;52;04
Brenton
Well, I think we can wrap it up there. Anything to add?

00;34;52;07 - 00;34;54;27
Matt
Nothing. We've covered it for now.

00;34;54;29 - 00;34;56;06
Nate
Yeah, I think we're good.

00;34;56;09 - 00;35;03;18
Brenton
Great. Well, if you do have any questions, ask it for the podcast.com. And we will talk to you next week.