00;00;40;27 - 00;00;46;15
Brenton
Welcome back to further. I am Brenton Grim. Chris Carr. Welcome back. How's it going?

00;00;46;19 - 00;00;49;03
Chris
Good to be back. Good.

00;00;49;05 - 00;00;52;04
Brenton
Yeah. It's been a couple of weeks since we've had you in here.

00;00;52;07 - 00;00;53;06
Chris
You miss me, didn't you?

00;00;53;07 - 00;01;10;13
Brenton
I did, it's always tough, but it's so nice to have you back. I've been dying to ask you. Not really, but. Yeah, for the sake of the show. We got white smoke a couple weeks ago. Yeah. What do you, What's your thoughts on this? This new election of the Pope?

00;01;10;15 - 00;01;30;04
Chris
Yeah. Well, it's it's quite the, I don't know if it's, I should say cultural phenomenon, but at least, Yeah. You know, it certainly has a big impact, in our culture. There's so many, Catholic boxes that are in the world and the influence that they have. It's been interesting just to kind of watch the responses.

00;01;30;04 - 00;01;55;11
Chris
And I'm, I'm most concerned with how, evangelical Christians, respond to it. And, it's been, yeah. Quite honestly a little bit concerning, to me and I just tell everybody I had you ask me this question. This is so I giving away our sin. Talk about it. Yeah. It's just, a little bit here.

00;01;55;11 - 00;02;25;29
Chris
I also see he he apparently is, at least from a very conservative order, Catholic order. And so, which, which probably is, is a good thing. But, I, I've been a little bit concerned with, how people, evangelicals, can be what I would say overly excited or too excited about that fact.

00;02;26;01 - 00;02;58;00
Chris
While ignoring, some of the real issues, here. So I just gonna go on record, I believe that, there are Catholics who are believers, and, who don't actually hold to the full teachings of the Catholic Church, especially when it comes to the issue of justification, central issue of justification. And we need to speak about more about Catholic doctrine than we should speak about Catholics.

00;02;58;02 - 00;03;23;21
Chris
Yeah. And I think we need to be very, clear. And again, here's that term nuance in regards, to that. But the reality is, and I should also say, we should be thankful for the Catholic Church's stance on some of our moral issues of our day. The biggest moral issues every day. Abortion. Generally speaking, it has been, at least in matters of sexuality, as well.

00;03;23;21 - 00;03;49;28
Chris
Although the last pope wasn't all that strong on that issue. But the, the, the real concern that I have is, is that, you know, there there is quite a bit in Catholic doctrine that is very problematic. And I would go so far as to saying heretical, especially when it does come to the doctrine of justification, which is the very center, of our faith.

00;03;50;01 - 00;04;14;04
Chris
And of course, there are always also issues with their view on, Mary. And then when it comes to the Pope, you mean they literally call him and he you see this in the ceremony? He's the Holy Father, which goes in direct opposition to what Jesus says in Matthew 23, where he tells the disciples, you know, don't call anybody or let anybody call you father, because you have one father in heaven.

00;04;14;04 - 00;04;52;19
Chris
And holy. The Catholic doctrine is, is that the Pope is infallible. And they're just, of course, I think we should see all kinds of issues and problems with that. And it breeds a lot of issues, too, is where the Pope's word, and church tradition is elevated above Scripture, which is absolutely fundamental to as well to our, you know, belief and, and and really where it all, ultimately comes down to is, is what has the final authority, you know, the papacy, the church's tradition or is it Scripture itself?

00;04;52;24 - 00;05;22;03
Chris
And if we get that wrong, we're bound to go wrong on a whole host of other issues. And then, and finally and maybe this, this pope will. I mean, I think as I've been reading, there's question as well whether he will continue in the vein of Francis, who was was one of the, if the most liberal pope that there has been at least theologically and ethically, or will he kind of curb that?

00;05;22;05 - 00;05;53;03
Chris
I think we can hope that he will. He will curb it for the sake of our culture in our world. But, if he doesn't, that's, another very significant cause for concern. And I just see, like, Pope Francis being venerated and, you know, he he got much of his doctrine wrong, and he even got the core, you know, issues around sexuality, wrong.

00;05;53;03 - 00;06;16;22
Chris
And so, yes, maybe has some really good things to say about social justice and how we treat the marginalized. And we can, admire that, but but I but I see just some people focusing on those kind of things and just ignoring what are quite honestly, maybe more important issues. Yeah. So there you go.

00;06;16;23 - 00;06;38;24
Brenton
That's good. Yeah. I mean, the the idea that, you know, maybe we're better off with a more conservative pope is reasonable, right? Like the guy has a lot of influence over the world. Sure. And so there's, there's, you know, there's good things that could come out of that. But either way, we as Protestants should reject that position, even existing.

00;06;38;27 - 00;06;48;06
Brenton
Right. You know, it's, it's so antithetical to, to what we believe as Protestants. And so anyway.

00;06;48;08 - 00;07;15;10
Chris
Yeah, yeah. And the only, the last thing I'll say is, you know, the White Sox really do need, help from above. So maybe, maybe Pope Leo can be that answer. So could be. Yeah, if you don't know what I'm talking about. He's a big White Sox fan and was as a 2005 World Series. And by the way, I actually literally have a bat from, that season championship bat here in my office.

00;07;15;13 - 00;07;16;05
Brenton
But what year was.

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Chris
The 2005 white Sox? I was living, in Chicagoland and, went to White Sox games on pretty regular basis.

00;07;23;25 - 00;07;25;12
Brenton
So did you go to the World Series?

00;07;25;12 - 00;07;45;27
Chris
I did not, it's a little, little hard to get into to that. But, I got there was 5000 bats made afterwards, and I have 4885 number four, that those squeaked in under an 85 year. So signed by all the players anyway, Eddie cool, there is the meaningless, info for today and.

00;07;45;29 - 00;08;09;15
Brenton
All right, into your message here. So you you brought up the doctrine of, the perseverance of the saints. I'm curious if you could kind of expand on what this what this doctrine actually says. I think there's some misunderstanding on what it, what it actually is. And then where does it come from? Biblically?

00;08;09;17 - 00;08;32;16
Chris
Yeah. I'll start with the word biblically. I think it really comes from from all over the place. We've already seen this in depth in the Gospel of John, you know, and in chapter six, Jesus says, all that the father gives to me, will comes to come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never wise or in no way, cast out.

00;08;32;17 - 00;09;06;07
Chris
Yeah. And so you really have their election, which is on the, the front end and, preservation on the, the back end. And kind of in that middle is the purpose of perseverance. Now, there's a lot of other things in the middle that God chooses us. The spirit brings us, Jesus justifies us, and then the spirit, preserves us, but he preserves us as we persevere in, in the faith.

00;09;06;07 - 00;09;40;06
Chris
So justification, election and regeneration, justification is all, all 100% a work of God. Sanctification, to put another term in there is a work in which we cooperate with the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit sanctifies us, but we have an active role in it. Philippians chapter 213 and 14, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is, God who works in you to will and to work according to his good pleasure.

00;09;40;06 - 00;10;11;20
Chris
So you see, see the, the both end of that. So perseverance, like I defined it on, on Sunday is, the doctrine that all those who are truly saved will continue in believing in Jesus and obeying Jesus and until the end. So there's that word, abi, that we, we, we saw and that we'll see again in John 15 and that John talks about in in his three letters.

00;10;11;22 - 00;10;36;24
Chris
The it literally means to continue to continue in. And it's a continue to to believe the truths about Jesus, to believe the teaching about Jesus of Jesus. And then, it's not just in belief in, in the, in the Bible, true belief is never just a mental assent. It's something that we we also grab hold of with our heart.

00;10;36;26 - 00;11;02;23
Chris
It's a head and heart thing, and we show that it's in, in truly in our heart by, by walking in it in obedience, to it. So, we just see this, really all throughout Scripture, we again, we've seen it in John six. We'll see it again in at least in John 15. Here it is. And in John 810.

00;11;02;25 - 00;11;29;23
Chris
This. Yeah. The sheep, my sheep hear my voice and they follow me and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will take them out of my my hand. I will take them out of the father's hands. And so it's it's there. John talks about this maybe even more in those three letters where he just gives all these tests about whether somebody is truly believing in one of them, is believing the truth, and another one is obeying the truth.

00;11;29;23 - 00;11;52;01
Chris
And the third one is love. Love for God and love for for others. And we could spend a lot of time looking at all the passages because they're just so, so many of them. Roman Romans, chapter eight is and who can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus? And we love that passage.

00;11;52;03 - 00;12;06;06
Chris
But if you back up and we could spend a whole lot, I could just read to you, the first part of chapter eight, where it talks about all that killing's killing sin aspect of it, too. So yeah.

00;12;06;09 - 00;12;27;09
Brenton
Yeah. Agreed. It's through the entire, New Testament. What do you there's a significant portion of evangelical culture that would disagree with that take, though. What do you think? What do you think that comes from that would that would say that we can, in fact, lose our salvation?

00;12;27;12 - 00;13;03;21
Chris
Well, there there are passages that if you read them in isolation and, take maybe a different interpretation can be cited to the seem to indicate that, you know, people, are actually losing their salvation. And, again, I mean, we just we have a really long conversation about this. You know, the book of Hebrews is, is a prime example of this is that there, there does seem un maybe just in isolation.

00;13;03;21 - 00;13;35;00
Chris
And and if you don't really look at the picture as a whole, would seem to indicate that, that people can lose their salvation. And yet, I again, I would make the argument in that, that some misunderstanding of that teaching, I think it's, it's also, tied into our just natural bent to, to, to be works based in our approach to salvation.

00;13;35;02 - 00;14;02;07
Chris
So we naturally think that we are we earn salvation. And if you earn salvation, that means you can lose salvation. Your salvation. And this is, this is I think everybody is is. But we are by nature. Every single person is prone to believe that salvation is by is by. Works is not what we do. And, if that's your natural, then is your natural.

00;14;02;07 - 00;14;20;01
Chris
Man on the other side is going to be that you can you can lose your salvation if you if you have to do something to earn it, then you can also do something to lose it. And and I think it ties into fear is a ever since Adam and Eve sinned is is a common experience.

00;14;20;07 - 00;14;47;25
Chris
We are all we all have fear. And so that fear that we're going to be driven out, and, and so that that kind of plays into it. But it's been a, you know, some of, the more famous Christian, teachers and even denominations, most influential, the Methodist Church, for example, John Wesley. Yeah.

00;14;47;27 - 00;14;55;06
Chris
Taught this, believe this. And so that has wide ranging implications for sure.

00;14;55;08 - 00;15;10;00
Brenton
So there's also the idea of things like eternal security or, you know, once saved, always saved. Are these would you say they're synonymous with with perseverance or do they differ?

00;15;10;03 - 00;15;40;28
Chris
Yeah. So I think so. This is a good question. It's an important one. I don't like the term one saved, always saved. And I grew up, with that, that phrase in that kind of view of these things, it's, it's true in, in, in a sense that is true. But the way it's often used is in the sense that you pray a prayer and ask Jesus into your heart.

00;15;40;28 - 00;16;11;05
Chris
You're you're in and you're you're saved. And then that that's it in this gone. And I've just known many people, who have prayed. That's been their experience. And then they, they they pray, prayer, they get baptized as a kid and then they, they really never walk in it, or at least at some point they just completely walk home, walk away from it and it goes a little bit back to us talking about it, on Sundays, like, do we look back?

00;16;11;05 - 00;16;37;22
Chris
Are we looking at what, when we're talking about our relationship with Jesus? Is it all past or is there presence and involvement in there? And, and then and I think, eternal security is a better term. But I think the more biblical and scriptural term for us to, to and the most honestly, the most helpful term to our actually faithfully walking that Jesus, is the perseverance of the saints.

00;16;37;22 - 00;17;07;15
Chris
It's not, even eternal security. We are eternally we are eternally secure. That that is absolutely true. And and I taught that on I taught that on Sunday. But that doesn't mean, like, you know, you just kind of. You got it. So you're good to go. I think we get ourselves into real trouble. And I don't think that the New Testament, would lend any credence to that.

00;17;07;15 - 00;17;12;01
Chris
We can we can or should have that mentality for sure.

00;17;12;03 - 00;17;14;16
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. So.

00;17;14;19 - 00;17;31;19
Chris
I don't think anybody's wrong by saying once saved, always saved or, I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with saying like, we have eternal security. I just think the best, the best approach, the most faithful to to Scripture and to the most helpful to the Christian life is the perseverance of the saints. Yeah.

00;17;31;21 - 00;17;52;14
Brenton
And there's there's just, you know, common connotations to some of these terms. I remember because I kind of grew up in that tradition, too, but it was used as, a pejorative, like the one saved. Always saved. It was like, oh, they believe once they've always been. It was like it wasn't necessarily, I don't know, a helpful term at that point.

00;17;52;14 - 00;17;56;20
Brenton
But you're right, it does have the connotation of this kind of anti lordship salvation.

00;17;56;20 - 00;18;08;08
Chris
Well, I would say this if somebody uses once saved always saved and they react negatively to what I am saying. Now when I tell on Sunday, then they're thinking of it the wrong way. That's unhelpful.

00;18;08;10 - 00;18;32;09
Brenton
Yeah it's there. So Jesus said that everyone who practices sin as a slave to sin, can you? I know you kind of talked about it on Sunday, maybe more than kind of, but can you explain what it what it means to be a slave to sin? Then what what are the implications of that?

00;18;32;11 - 00;19;06;22
Chris
Yeah. I don't know if I have too much more to to share than what I did on Sunday. I think that we when we're slave to sin, we are really doing what our sinful nature directs us to do, and and we're not objectively in control of our of our, our life. And in determining exactly how the things, are going to go and what we are going to do.

00;19;06;22 - 00;19;27;16
Chris
So that's one way of looking at it. Another thing is, is that we're just slaves to our desires and our passions. And we all, you know, we find ourselves doing things that we even don't want to, we don't really want to do, or maybe we want to stop doing it, and we find that we actually can't stop doing it.

00;19;27;19 - 00;19;52;27
Chris
Or we find that a particular sin just has, a greater hold on us than even seems normal when we're just a little. It's questioning, why do I do that? All of the all of the time? You know, Luther had, a book called The Bondage of the Will. I use that term on on Sunday. There's this idea, like, when we get into the, you probably want to get it.

00;19;52;27 - 00;19;53;14
Chris
This I it's.

00;19;53;14 - 00;19;56;25
Brenton
In my notes. You saw it. I had to decide.

00;19;56;25 - 00;19;58;18
Chris
It's this idea of free will.

00;19;58;21 - 00;19;59;22
Brenton
Yeah, yeah.

00;19;59;24 - 00;20;02;24
Chris
What do you think about that? And.

00;20;02;27 - 00;20;05;23
Brenton
I think I agree with Luther, which is.

00;20;05;23 - 00;20;06;00
Chris
Yeah.

00;20;06;01 - 00;20;29;25
Brenton
I mean, what is the the idea. This was one of the first debates that happened in, in the Reformation era. Luther had, written debate with Erasmus, and Erasmus took the position that our wills are free, that we can we can decide, we can, we have the agency to decide if we're going to trust Christ or not.

00;20;29;28 - 00;21;04;05
Brenton
And I think Luther took the biblical position of saying that we are in one of two states where either a slave to sin or we're a slave to Christ, and that seems to be far more consistent with the teaching of the New Testament. I mean, Paul uses this often. Romans six says, but thanks be to God that you, who were once slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you are committed and have been set free from sin, have and have become slaves of righteousness.

00;21;04;05 - 00;21;19;06
Brenton
And so I think that, you know, it comes back to our anthropology that we are we're born, slaves of sin, and that's our master until the spirit sets us free of that.

00;21;19;09 - 00;21;27;14
Chris
Yeah. So you're saying that no one, apart from Christ, actually has freedom of the will? There is no free will.

00;21;27;16 - 00;21;41;10
Brenton
Yeah. And, you know, this can go a number of different directions. I think the term that I find helpful is we have creaturely will. Right. We can't, we can't thwart God's sovereignty with our will.

00;21;41;13 - 00;21;42;01
Chris


00;21;43;08 - 00;22;06;07
Brenton
So we we have freedom to make choices. We we make genuine choices. But, you know, if we take our, our doctrine of total depravity seriously, right, that we were totally unable to come to Jesus without the spirit regenerating us. And so, you know, that comes back to what what is our will able to do?

00;22;06;12 - 00;22;47;16
Chris
Yeah. Yeah. That that's really good. The more I study and and the longer I'm doing this, the the more I become convinced of the just the crucial importance of our anthropology. And what to what do we really believe about man? And what do we believe the Bible says about man? There's there's another passage in Romans, in chapter eight, verse 19, the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God, for the creation was subject to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption, and attain the freedom of the glory of

00;22;47;16 - 00;23;13;29
Chris
the children of God. So what's interesting there is, is not only, was humanity in, in, in, in bondage, enslaved to to to corruption, to the effects of the the fall. So too is like all of creation. Yeah. Like the, the created world, which includes plants and animals and the sea and the sky, you know, and all that.

00;23;14;04 - 00;23;24;20
Chris
And also, created order, things like education and, art and music and.

00;23;24;23 - 00;23;25;15
Brenton
Interesting.

00;23;25;17 - 00;23;49;16
Chris
And. Yeah, I mean to say business, but, and, and education and all of these kind of things. So that's another kind of discussion. But it's like there isn't any true freedom in the sense until Christ sets us free. And we actually then live in that freedom. Because here's the other thing for us believers is like, we can be free but not live as free people.

00;23;49;18 - 00;24;03;19
Chris
And Paul actually talks about that in, in Galatians. Is that for a freedom crisis? If you're free, don't be basically enslaved in bondage any longer. Don't live that way. Yeah.

00;24;03;22 - 00;24;26;10
Brenton
Yeah. Good. I didn't know if we were going to get into it or not. I was going to enter that with with your Bob Dylan quote. Yeah. We'll skip it. Yeah. So you gave a strong warning about how sin, grows over time and it grows slowly. You said that people don't typically wake up one day and say, I'm going to have an affair today.

00;24;26;15 - 00;24;52;16
Brenton
These things happen over time as a result of not killing sin immediately when it comes up. So how can we train ourselves to recognize the weight of our sin? You know, even the seemingly small sins that that happen, I think it's it's so easy for us to kind of blow off a small thing. And then, you know, eventually we become desensitized to it and it just grows and grows.

00;24;52;16 - 00;25;03;12
Brenton
Grows what, you know, how can how can we train ourselves to actually have a realistic view of the weight of our sin?

00;25;03;15 - 00;25;37;09
Chris
Well, I think it begins with, some core, you know, beliefs or affirmations that all sin is serious because it's rebellion against the Holy God. So there are no, innocent small sins. Yeah. Or insignificant sins. Maybe it's a better way to put it. So there's that. There is is is recognizing that it is our sin that, put Christ on the cross.

00;25;37;12 - 00;26;04;05
Chris
And it's not just the the again, the big sins. It's, it's, it's the little ones to, the seemingly insignificant ones and, and so, we we just have to again take sin seriously. All sin. Seriously. I know you were going to go here, but, just go ahead and hit it. It's it's treating ourselves to confess.

00;26;04;08 - 00;26;25;28
Chris
Yeah. Keep short accounts. I think is a great way to say it is that we don't, we don't give in to, like. Oh, okay. It's not a big deal or, you know, I'll I'll, you know, get back to that or, you know, I'll confess it later or whatever. But that we are sensitive to the spirit.

00;26;25;28 - 00;26;48;19
Chris
We don't grieve. The spirit, I think, is what. What, Paul, that's to say about that, which means that when he convicts us, we're like, okay, we're going to respond. And I think it's just really simple. It's hard. It's not it's not, you know, but it's simple. Is, is that you? You sin and you got a choice.

00;26;48;22 - 00;27;09;21
Chris
You can confess it and then, like, bring it to the light, turn from it, or you can not. And depending upon the choice that we make, it'll get either easier to, to, to do so the next time. It'll get harder to, to do so the next time. And it really is in many ways it just boils down, to that.

00;27;09;23 - 00;27;34;00
Chris
I'm not saying it's that's easy in any stretch of the imagination, but it is at the end of the day, relatively simple. And I think we, we, you know, we fool ourselves. We really, really do into thinking it's not a big deal. I've got it under control. And so the other thing is not, just I'm not going to trust myself.

00;27;34;02 - 00;27;35;16
Brenton
Yeah.

00;27;35;18 - 00;28;11;09
Chris
Like, we we we trust ourselves way, way too much. And and like, I it's okay that that's. I've got it not not a big deal. And it just it's subtle. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. That's what my my whole point. It just doesn't again I, I just seen this so many times I get nobody nobody wakes up one day and says I think like I'm going to just get to the point where I'm so bitter at my spouse that I can't take it anymore, and I'm going to.

00;28;11;10 - 00;28;27;28
Chris
I'm done. Yeah. No, it it happens a little, a little bit by a little. Yeah. Another there aren't big things that can happen. Like you didn't necessarily see coming or whatever, but that's just not the pattern. It's just not the way it works.

00;28;27;28 - 00;28;51;06
Brenton
Yeah. Okay. So we did have a question come up, on our Facebook page, that I wanted to run past you. He said it seems from his sermon that merely believing in Jesus is not enough and that, that fruit must be produced in order to maintain salvation. What would you say to that?

00;28;51;09 - 00;29;14;20
Chris
Well, I, I want to understand what is meant by merely believing to, to to to begin with. I'm going to assume that that that means believing that. You know what I what? I shared the whole truth about Jesus. He's the Son of God who died on the cross for our sins. Or rose again three days later. Ascended back.

00;29;14;25 - 00;29;43;02
Chris
Back to heaven is going to come one day to judge the living and the dead and establish God's kingdom here on earth. If, if that's what we mean by merely believing the that's all that someone, has to believe, have have faith, in and to be regenerated, to be justified. You know, so the there is that but with that being said, there's more to the story.

00;29;43;04 - 00;30;05;22
Chris
And I'll just go back to that passage if you buy it in my word, you are truly my disciples, and then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. So just verse 31, if you abide in my word, you are truly are really my disciples. And what Jesus is saying here is that, continuing in my word shows that you truly are my disciples.

00;30;05;25 - 00;30;35;28
Chris
But you're you're and I talked about how that word abide is continuing, and it means continuing to to believe the truth about Jesus. And an obey Jesus, the continuing to believe and continue to obey don't save you. They reveal that you have been saved. The the abiding shows that anything is just clear. What Jesus is saying is it shows that they're evidence.

00;30;35;28 - 00;30;59;03
Chris
And one of the reasons I think we know this is because the same author, he was writing this in his three letters for second and third John, especially first John uses this word abide, and then he gives us evidence. You know, that we can use that we can look at to show whether or not we truly have come to know Jesus, abiding in believing the truth about Jesus.

00;30;59;04 - 00;31;25;04
Chris
When we talk about abiding and continuing in that belief, it means like we're continuing, you know, and we're not letting go. We're saying, I don't believe that anymore. Those those truths about about Jesus. There's the continuing in in that original profession of faith until the end, and there's obeying the not perfectly but that's the pattern of our life, is that we and Jesus going to talk about this later.

00;31;25;04 - 00;31;56;09
Chris
John chapter 15. You know, if you abide in me, you will. It means obeying me very specifically so that and then there's there's love loving for God and loving, for others. And so, it's it it is true that if, if the moment that someone places their faith in Jesus and faith in Jesus alone, and we appreciate all the time salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in Jesus Christ, alone, no period.

00;31;56;12 - 00;32;25;04
Chris
And yet the consistent I believe, teaching in the New Testament and of this passage. And we're going to see it some more this this coming week. Is that true? Faith is evidence like that. There is evidence that, we give to show that we truly do have faith and that, Jesus's parable of the four soils, and, and I believe the best interpretation is that there's only one true believer in there.

00;32;25;04 - 00;32;38;24
Chris
And what's the true believer is one who bears fruit. Much fruit. The other three one never starts out. The other two quickly, relatively quickly fade away. They're not believing they're not producing fruit anymore. It's all.

00;32;38;24 - 00;33;00;24
Brenton
Right. Yeah. He he ended the, the, point by saying proving or maintaining faith is not a true belief in Christ. It's a slippery slope into workspace salvation. And I, I think you would you know, you would disagree that this is workspace salvation and salvation, but this does kind of bring me to my last topic about the assurance of salvation.

00;33;00;24 - 00;33;29;27
Brenton
You know, this is a topic that comes up frequently, especially when we talk about these things. You ended your sermon by talking about our adoption as sons and daughters of God. What would you, what would you say to someone who hears this message and is now maybe questioning their their salvation? You know, I think the message we don't want to send is, is kind of what he's saying here of, like, we need to we need to make sure we have our salvation.

00;33;29;27 - 00;33;44;07
Brenton
We need to we need to prove to ourselves that, by, by, you know, doing these works or whatever, like, that's that's not the route we want to go. But, what would you say to someone in that position?

00;33;44;09 - 00;34;13;25
Chris
Well, there's a lot of things that could be said. I think I'll let Scripture speak. I'll start with this, synchrony, these 13, five. After almost 13 chapters where Paul gives, the Corinthians a bunch of tests that they can use to, to, to take and determine whether or not they're believer. He says, examine yourselves, see whether you're in the faith, test yourselves, or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?

00;34;13;25 - 00;34;41;28
Chris
Unless indeed he failed to meet the tests. So I've been, you know, I've heard many, many times we should never question, whether or not we are saved. And, Paul actually says to examine ourselves, to see whether or not we are in the. We are in the faith in the tests. There really are plural tests in Second Corinthians is not simply do you, you know, affirm.

00;34;42;04 - 00;35;22;09
Chris
Yeah, this truth about Jesus. They're there are many, many other things that you say, this is this is a it's not what saves you, but it is evidence that you are saved. And and so, I, I also think that we, we're given these tests and we're given warnings about things like falling away. Not because it's possible, because they are the means that God uses to either reveal that we we weren't saved in the first place, or that, like, we're headed down, down a dangerous road and he uses to wake us up to, to bring us back.

00;35;22;09 - 00;35;51;23
Chris
And I think that's the story in Hebrews chapter or Hebrews six. But really the whole Hebrew book of Hebrews got believers, and they're starting to say we're out because of this persecution, or, you know, the wrestling with that, and we've got this. Okay, come on, hold on, hang on, gather together and and all these kind of things. In the final, the final word, though, I think, is, is that Philippians one six, he who began a good work in you will will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ.

00;35;51;25 - 00;36;20;08
Chris
And, much of my argument would be here if someone is a believer, that means that God has placed in them the Holy Spirit. And Paul talks in Ephesians one, and he's given us the spirit as a guarantee, a deposit on our future salvation. And if we have the Holy Spirit of God living in us, do we really think it's possible that there's going to be no evidence of of that?

00;36;20;10 - 00;36;42;24
Chris
Paul talks about in that same Ephesians one, that the same power that God used to raise Jesus from the dead is at work and and alive in us. And I think it's a it's a, it's a is a stretch. I really believe it's a real stretch to think that the that we can have the Holy Spirit living within us in Jesus, as greater as he was in you than he is in the world.

00;36;42;26 - 00;37;11;08
Chris
There's so many passages to revelations one, two and three, and you're talking about these overcomers and, Jesus repeatedly in those seven churches, you know, he's talking and, and and so, at the end of the day, we are going to persevere because God is going to preserve us. He's going to preserve his people. And and the way that he preserves us is, is through us giving our selves.

00;37;11;08 - 00;37;31;29
Chris
Two things. That's just one of the ways that that he does it, which is why church and and preaching and prayer and Bible study and community and confession and all these things are they're so important they don't save us, but they're they're evidence that we are saved. And they are ways that God keeps us saved, which now I even know, as I'm just saying, does God keep us safe?

00;37;31;29 - 00;37;53;16
Chris
Yes. He keeps us saved because if it was up to us like here's the thing, like if it was up to us, we, we, we would run away from him like that. This is the greatest assurance like I hopefully everybody in have is like yes. If it if it was left up to us we would fall away.

00;37;53;19 - 00;37;58;03
Chris
But he's promised that he's not going to allow that to happen.

00;37;58;03 - 00;38;20;12
Brenton
Yeah. I love how you ended your message, talking about how we're sons and daughters of of God, because I think there's so much, permanency wrapped up in that language that we're heirs with Christ. Like, those things are not things that we're going to lose. I mean, we we are sons and daughters forever. So. Yeah. Yeah, it's good.

00;38;20;12 - 00;38;31;29
Brenton
If I can, I'll end with a loser. Just wrap this thing up. It says we are saved by faith alone. But the faith that saves is never alone. I think that's that's maybe a good way to wrap this thing up.

00;38;31;29 - 00;38;39;06
Chris
Sounds like, Jesus. Brother James, right? Yeah. Faith works is dead. Although Luther didn't like that very much.

00;38;39;08 - 00;38;43;00
Brenton
Or didn't like a lot of things. Or at the end of his life.

00;38;43;02 - 00;38;45;10
Chris
All right, well, that's good.

00;38;45;12 - 00;38;55;15
Brenton
Yeah. If you got any more questions, let us know. Ask it further. Podcast.com. I appreciate, your sermon and you coming on here, and we'll talk to you guys next week.