00;00;39;16 - 00;00;46;09
Speaker 1
Welcome back to further. I am Brenton Grimm. Chris Carr, welcome back. How are you doing?

00;00;46;11 - 00;00;52;04
Speaker 2
I'm doing good. It's good. Good to be back. And here we go again. Yeah, another.

00;00;52;08 - 00;00;59;02
Speaker 1
I feel like we've had a lot of extra things going on lately. We've had something to talk about, and I don't have anything right now, so.

00;00;59;04 - 00;01;02;15
Speaker 2
Well, we've got plenty to talk about from the true text.

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Speaker 1
And we will get into some fun things today.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;01;06;17 - 00;01;25;16
Speaker 1
All right, well, then let's just jump into it. So, one of your most direct statements, this week was if the Bible always agrees with you, then you're almost assuredly not reading it correctly. Can you just start by unpacking that a little more? What exactly do you mean by that?

00;01;25;18 - 00;01;58;26
Speaker 2
Well, I think there's many different ways that this is, Or we at least can come at this. For one, it's pretty obvious that there's a lot of different interpretations of, the Bible, on nearly every topic, that it speaks to. And so if we think that we are the one person in history that has every single thing, you know, nailed down and right, that that's probably the, you know, pretty delusion of, to begin with.

00;01;58;26 - 00;02;31;01
Speaker 2
But I think that we have to realize that the, the Bible is, you know, the word of truth, and we are fallen sinful people. And so to think that, the Bible's not going to, come into conflict with the way that we think or live or believe at some point is just, really maybe the height of, of an example of just how, deceived we actually are about that.

00;02;31;06 - 00;02;53;04
Speaker 2
And if you read what the Bible actually says about itself, you know, Hebrews is sharper than any two edged sword and, and and divides and cuts basically to the, the inner being that the picture there is, it's like it's, it's doing some work on us, because we need surgery. That's one way to look at the Bible.

00;02;53;23 - 00;03;14;09
Speaker 2
I think and so I just, I think if we, we're always, reading it is this just makes us feel good. It's encouraged. It's always encouraged. It is encouraging. But but but it's just always comforting. Always affirming. Then I think we, We should be really concerned about that, I'm sure.

00;03;14;12 - 00;03;16;07
Speaker 1
Yeah, it makes sense.

00;03;16;24 - 00;03;39;23
Speaker 2
And not only maybe I just say like. Like Peter, talks about Paul, like he's he's he's writing about Paul, and he says, Paul writes some difficult things of. Sure to understand. So there's the there are difficult things understanding the Bible. And so if we, we have this I, we kind of pretend maybe you don't think that they're, they're they are difficult to understand.

00;03;39;23 - 00;04;08;23
Speaker 2
That probably shows we're not understanding. And if we also think that we, you know, we've got it figured out when there's some very godly, smart, people, that have studied a lot more than we have who see it differently, that doesn't mean they're right. Like sometimes there are people who are very smart and who studied a lot, and they get it wrong.

00;04;08;24 - 00;04;18;24
Speaker 2
And you and I could have a long discussion and point out some of those things. But as you're saying, if that's generally speaking, is is going to be problematic. I think that makes.

00;04;18;24 - 00;04;41;08
Speaker 1
Me want to go in kind of a different direction here. Okay. How how can we hold any convictions firmly then if. Sure. You know, if if super smart people who have studied this stuff their whole lives come to different conclusions, how can we, as even laypeople like, hold, hold the things firmly that people disagree with, right?

00;04;41;10 - 00;05;11;10
Speaker 2
Well, that's a great question. And one of the, foundational, really truths about Scripture is that it is a clear, clear clarity. And what that means is doesn't mean that we can, everything in it is absolutely clear to us. But the essential truths are are clear and can be readily understood by any believer who has a believer.

00;05;11;10 - 00;05;38;10
Speaker 2
Meaning have is the Holy Spirit. And so, the Scripture teaches this, that it is, clear, on what is essential. And, and so we can be, sure that, we are understanding it. Right. On the what I would call gospel gospel matters, gospel issues.

00;05;38;12 - 00;05;43;05
Speaker 1
Clear on the on what we need to know to be Christians. Should that be fair?

00;05;43;05 - 00;06;12;20
Speaker 2
Yes. Good. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Good way to say it. Yeah. And and so, that's where we've got to go back to our biblical ology, the doctrine in the Bible, the Bible's sufficient, the Bible's clear, the Bible's authoritative, the Bible's necessary. So you use the acronym Skanska. And again, sufficient means everything that that we need to to to be saved and to be godly people.

00;06;13;25 - 00;06;35;25
Speaker 2
So as justification in sanctification, if you want to use that, it is it's clear what you just gave a great definition of that, authoritative, which means it's our final authority for all matters of faith and practice. And then it's necessary, like it's impossible for us to actually know God to be saved and to to to grow in our faith without scripture.

00;06;35;28 - 00;06;36;20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;06;36;22 - 00;06;42;03
Speaker 2
Okay. Yeah. We didn't think we're going to get into a little theology of the Bible there, but it's it's really important.

00;06;42;06 - 00;07;03;23
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think it's it's common for us to read scripture through certain lenses as well, you know, so, you know, maybe we've assumed things for a long time, and we're not even realizing that we're wrong in our interpretation of something. How do we kind of try to minimize bringing those those assumptions in where we shouldn't?

00;07;03;25 - 00;07;23;02
Speaker 2
Well, I'll give you, oh, one really great way to, to do it, and that is to read people outside of your normal, you know, church and even maybe theological background. And then we.

00;07;23;02 - 00;07;25;06
Speaker 1
Interesting statement coming from a pastor.

00;07;25;09 - 00;07;53;13
Speaker 2
Now. Well, yes. And, and I want to, nuance that, is you do have to be careful about this for sure. Right. But I actually really get concerned when I hear. And I just had this happen recently. People's like, I, I, I can't, you know, read from that person or learn from that person because they don't agree with me on X topic or I don't agree with them on X topic.

00;07;54;03 - 00;08;21;19
Speaker 2
And, and I'm not talking about, reading from nonbelievers and I'm not talking about reading from, from people who, are unorthodox believers potentially, or people call themselves Christian who are unorthodox. But I am talking about people who, maybe have a different view than than we do in, on, on a whole variety of things. We mentioned N.T. Wright last week.

00;08;21;19 - 00;09;00;26
Speaker 2
Right. So, and there are certain things that aren't right that I think both you and I would very strenuously disagree with, and they're not even minor, necessarily minor issues. And so, we've got to, you know, take it kind of with a grain of salt. But I would say the to use another analogy, that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and if you if you want the maybe the greatest defense of the resurrection that's been written in the last several hundred years, you read, you know, you know, read a and he I'm reading a book, by him right now on heaven.

00;09;00;28 - 00;09;27;03
Speaker 2
And it's actually doing exactly what I'm talking about here. It's beginning to, challenge some of my, what I believe that about heaven. And and and now the key in this is making sure that we are taking what we are reading. And we're going back to the Bible with or being good Bereans. And so whoever and we should do this whoever with whomever we're reading, people we agree with and people that we don't agree with.

00;09;27;03 - 00;09;37;06
Speaker 2
And I think that's the the real concern that I have sometimes is like, we're not actually taking the people that we do agree with and and comparing it to Scripture.

00;09;37;08 - 00;09;38;11
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;09;38;13 - 00;09;48;15
Speaker 2
And we're us and we're, we're unwilling to read people who maybe don't agree with us on everything. That can help to, to eliminate.

00;09;48;18 - 00;10;12;03
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I think you're right. It's such an important, thing to have the ability to read things that are maybe different than what we would believe, but be able to have the discernment to kind of spit out the bones, if you will. Right. There's there's a lot of good content out there and things that we would miss if we just stuck to, to stuck to our camp.

00;10;12;09 - 00;10;19;27
Speaker 1
And so now obviously within, within guardrails. Right. There's, there's a lot of things that you're dismiss out of hand.

00;10;19;27 - 00;10;51;02
Speaker 2
Well but this is why it's so important. Right. Here's the other problem. People end up reading, authors that they like or, or, you know, that are recommended to them more than they're actually reading the Bible. One of the challenges problems I had was study Bibles, which I think in general helpful. I don't, use a study Bible very often because I found that it's really easy to read the notes more than you're actually reading the scripture and allowing the Holy Spirit to speak there.

00;10;51;02 - 00;11;10;22
Speaker 2
So don't get it. I'm not suggesting get rid of your, study, but they're helpful. I've got a bunch of them sitting here on on my, book cases, but I am suggesting that we just be really careful that we're not reading more of our favorite author than we are actually reading the Bible itself.

00;11;10;23 - 00;11;37;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So the other side of this conversation is not necessarily understanding, but submitting to what we find in Scripture. And, you know, it can be really hard to to challenge strongly held beliefs, things that we've believed over our maybe our whole lives. How can we grow in our willingness to kind of follow the Spirit's leading and the counsel of, you know, godly men that have executed in Scripture over the years?

00;11;39;07 - 00;12;08;16
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think that this is just, really a matter of consciously making a decision. Are we going to be willing to submit to, to the spirit into to other people's. Yeah. How the spirit is using other people to, to teach, who or whether we're going, I mean, humility goes a long way in life in virtually every, way.

00;12;08;18 - 00;12;34;28
Speaker 2
And I think that's is particularly, you know, this in, in, Psalm 119, it's really long, 176 verses. And, it just though it has just so much to say. I would just encourage us to kind of regularly going back to that to remind us of the importance of the scriptures and, and, help us to prepare our hearts.

00;12;34;28 - 00;12;55;29
Speaker 2
And there's one of the verses. I don't have the verses, you know, I don't have a memorized, but it talks about I will run in the path of your commandments when you enlarge my heart. And so it's this really actually a it's a statement on scripture, but it's also a prayer like, like give me the heart to to to want to, to listen to this, to obey it.

00;12;55;29 - 00;13;19;19
Speaker 2
And scripture and prayer go hand in hand. You know, we we really you know, they're not, in my opinion, two separate spiritual disciplines. They are they're one they go hand in hand. And, yeah, they are distinct, but they shouldn't be separated. I guess is a better way to say that they're okay.

00;13;20;21 - 00;13;42;01
Speaker 1
Okay. Moving on a little bit. So you said physical and spiritual heritage don't make us children of God. And I think, you know, we would all probably agree with that. But why is this such a tempting thing for people to trust in? How can even just growing up in a Christian environment sometimes obscure our need for for Jesus?

00;13;44;03 - 00;14;14;16
Speaker 2
I, I think part of it is just it's comfortable, right? I mean, it's comforting and easy. It is like I can put something outside of myself. But I can also put something outside of what I need to, to do or to make my, my own, so to speak. Maybe it's just it's it's easy. And we want to we want easy so that that that's a that's a big part of it.

00;14;14;16 - 00;14;29;20
Speaker 2
And I just think it's especially challenging in the culture that we live in when we have been so Christianized. And it's even more so, you know, in certain parts of the certain parts of the country.

00;14;29;26 - 00;14;31;00
Speaker 1
You brought up Texas.

00;14;31;03 - 00;14;56;20
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, it's the Bible, the Bible Belt, but it's also the we're not technically in the Bible Belt, but we are, you know, the Midwest in, it would be different if you're in the northeast, if you're on the West Coast. And if you're maybe in a major, major city, it's just you're they're less moral again, Christian, they're more post-Christian.

00;14;58;05 - 00;15;01;28
Speaker 2
In some ways we are, you know, the whole country is post-Christian, but we always.

00;15;01;28 - 00;15;02;25
Speaker 1
Catch up eventually.

00;15;03;02 - 00;15;33;21
Speaker 2
Right. But, it's, And so you're in this, you just in that's the, the culture and, you know, you got the, the hobby lobbies with all the, all the signs and like, you go into the coffee shops and there they are and all of us and. Yeah, and stuff and churches on every corner and. Yeah. And so it's just, that's just, the way that the culture runs.

00;15;33;21 - 00;15;57;23
Speaker 2
And so it's just by default like this, that's what it means. Yeah. And the Christian, you know, Christians haven't always been that, that helpful where we, we use the language where we wrap, the cross in the American flag and there's very little separation between being, I mean, in many places, many churches, a very little separation between being a Christian to be an American.

00;15;57;26 - 00;15;58;19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;15;58;21 - 00;15;59;27
Speaker 2
But yeah.

00;16;00;02 - 00;16;01;07
Speaker 1
Which probably stay there for a while.

00;16;01;08 - 00;16;30;17
Speaker 2
Well, we could it's just it's, And I know, this is a touchy subject, but the real danger in, in that is, is that then people I identify, being a Christian, being American to being a Christian, and that's not helpful for them. And it's actually not even helpful for a witness a lot of times. And but that's not, you know, like you said, we could we could spend a lot of time on that.

00;16;30;18 - 00;16;31;16
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;16;31;18 - 00;16;51;17
Speaker 1
All right. We're going to take a hard left turn here. So, Jesus talks quite a bit about the devil in this passage. This isn't a topic I don't think that we've spent much time here or here on further talking about, one of the things that you said was that his number one weapon is deceit.

00;16;51;19 - 00;17;17;18
Speaker 1
And verse 44 says he was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. So, you know, there's there's so much extra biblical opinion and law around, around him, around Satan, that it can be hard to get a clear like biblical view of who he is.

00;17;18;20 - 00;17;31;14
Speaker 1
So I have a few questions here. First of all, when we when we talk about things like spiritual warfare, what what do we mean by that? Like biblically, how how does Satan interact with humanity?

00;17;31;17 - 00;18;05;24
Speaker 2
Yeah, I it's a really good question. I think it's somewhat hard to explain. I just will go to Ephesians six and that's the language that, that, that Paul uses there. He says, you know, we we don't wrestle with flesh and blood, but with the principalities and the powers, in the heavenly places. And I think it's instructive to, to talk about or to to look at how Paul tells us to actually wage the we're in a war, we're in a battle.

00;18;05;28 - 00;18;24;28
Speaker 2
And so how do we wage and the war? And he talks about, putting on the whole armor of God. And I think oftentimes we can, you know, just kind of skip over the different the different aspects of that. He talks about, you know, having fastened on the belt of truth. Okay. So how is how is the battle this is where the deceit like it.

00;18;25;00 - 00;18;48;08
Speaker 2
Yeah. The spiritual warfare is a warfare of our of the, the mind and somewhat and the heart of of lies. And the truth is, is put on the breastplate of righteousness. And one of the ways that the devil tax us is by, you know, he he's the name Satan means the accuser of of the, you know, the brothers, brothers and sisters.

00;18;48;08 - 00;19;17;01
Speaker 2
And so he's accusing us. He's he's he's reminding us of our sin and how we deserve, you know, condemnation and the guilt and shame like that. Put on shoes for your feet. The readiness given by the gospel of peace. I think that in terms of, like we were talking about with the staff today, anxiety and and worry and things there take up the shield of faith, which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one.

00;19;17;04 - 00;19;45;18
Speaker 2
What are those flaming darts that we have a discussion about that, and, and then, of course, he gives us our, offensive weapons. The armor is defensive, the way to protect ourselves. And there's offensive weapons, which are prayer and and the word we get, we get back. To that. So I think a lot of times we, we think in terms of this spiritual warfare as more physical.

00;19;45;21 - 00;20;10;12
Speaker 2
And then the Bible describes it like that primarily there, there are, you know, physical, aspects to it for sure. But it seems to me that what we find is it's actually more mental, and what's going on in our head and in our heart, and then what's going on in our, you know, our our physical body parts.

00;20;10;14 - 00;20;11;20
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;20;11;23 - 00;20;12;23
Speaker 1


00;20;12;25 - 00;20;35;01
Speaker 2
Like the devil I think is much more likely to attack us in the, in something that we're thinking or feeling or believing that he is in terms of like, the, making us sick or get in a car accident or and I'm not saying it as I'm a so, I mean, I almost went down this road on, on Sunday.

00;20;35;02 - 00;21;25;00
Speaker 2
We talk about the that my wife's accident. Yeah. Okay. And I've had a number of people say is spiritual warfare and spiritual and I don't I don't disagree, I don't disagree with it. Do do I actually think that the devil pushed my wife down the stairs? I don't I don't think that that actually happened. I think that the spiritual warfare aspect of it is, is more is in, just the different elements of, of how we are, have been there really still are, but especially in the early days, like processing that and and and the, the maybe the lies that he's trying to get us to believe about, you know, God doesn't really

00;21;25;02 - 00;21;51;22
Speaker 2
doesn't really love you, you know, like you're serving him. Why would he allow this to happen to you and, and and and it's it's more of that. No, I'm not saying that that the the the the devil, the spiritual world wasn't involved in the accident or accidents. I think that that's likely. And at times, I think we got to be really, really careful that we don't think that every time we subito.

00;21;51;25 - 00;22;17;24
Speaker 2
The devil did it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I think we've got to be, what I've tried to take away from that and, and, and I believe it has to is, is that there is spiritual warfare, but the spiritual warfare isn't so much in the terms of the physical pain. It it's just like in, in are you going to trust they're going to trust God.

00;22;17;24 - 00;22;33;23
Speaker 2
And are you going to believe. Yeah. You know, he's good. And what is this going to do to your emotions and, and how are you going to respond to people and, and and all of that. Well, does that make sense? I mean, yeah, I think that's.

00;22;33;23 - 00;22;59;23
Speaker 1
What we see with like, Jesus's interaction with, with Satan. Right? Like he's he's trying to get him to bow down. Right. And that it wasn't it wasn't any like physical attacks on him. But yet, you know, those those threats are still real. I don't know, I it's just such a, an abstract thing that we don't have a lot of concrete teaching on it.

00;22;59;24 - 00;23;09;22
Speaker 1
Sure, sure. And so I think a lot of mystery just gets applied, and then we throw our own kind of view on it. Right? And so it just gets cluttered, I think.

00;23;09;22 - 00;23;37;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. And we naturally want to focus on the, you know, I don't say the Hollywood view, but but, but the, the this just like, oh, there were some books, you growing up, are you familiar with them by Frank Peretti? Like Piercing the Darkness, all this stuff that I've heard of. Yeah. There's a certain, age demographic that, as I say, that they're they they know everyone's getting what it was all about.

00;23;38;02 - 00;23;57;14
Speaker 2
If they're really, really interesting. But it wasn't always. I don't think like, is is biblical, is it could be. While also raising the awareness that there is this spiritual. Yeah. I mean, C.S. Lewis also said that there, there there were two mistakes that we make. We either make too much of him or we make too little of them.

00;23;57;14 - 00;24;02;10
Speaker 2
When we talk about the, the, the devil. And so it's easier to get into it, to one of the other,

00;24;02;16 - 00;24;05;12
Speaker 1
The Satan books when I was growing up where I was called Harry Potter.

00;24;05;13 - 00;24;11;27
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sure.

00;24;11;29 - 00;24;34;27
Speaker 1
Now, speaking of C.S. Lewis, though, I mean, that, you know, I think he did a really good job of playing that out in Screwtape Letters. And I think that that that seems to be the most reasonable view for me of how that interaction can happen. Like it's it's just a it's a slow road down of thinking of yourself more and thinking less of God.

00;24;35;03 - 00;24;55;09
Speaker 1
Right. So, I think there's that seems the reasonable approach. I, I in general, I think when I think about these things, I, you know, I don't need help sinning. Right? So like, I can do that on my own and I don't I don't think, you know, most of the time I have the excuse of blaming Satan for that.

00;24;56;11 - 00;24;57;18
Speaker 1
So anyway.

00;24;57;19 - 00;25;19;25
Speaker 2
I think my, my take in, in whole is I think there's like, you're you're right to point out there's a lot of kind of things that are unclear. We don't have a lot of specifics given in Scripture, but in their passage, Jesus makes it. This Sunday made it really, really clear that he's the father of lies and that the primary way he works is through speaking lies.

00;25;19;25 - 00;25;42;14
Speaker 2
He he doesn't say they're the primary way. You know, he he's the father of illness. And he's the father of accidents. He did that mean. And, again, I think from what we see in the New Testament in demon possession and like, okay, yeah, he does he does do those things too. But that's not where Jesus goes.

00;25;42;14 - 00;26;04;29
Speaker 2
And this passage where I think we maybe have more about the devil than in any other passage. Jesus. He lies. And that's something that across all cultures, you know, it seems to me that the devil works, differently in different places in different times.

00;26;05;02 - 00;26;05;25
Speaker 1
I was going to bring that up.

00;26;08;01 - 00;26;14;09
Speaker 2
And we could, you know, hypothesize about what that is. But underneath it all, it's about deception.

00;26;14;12 - 00;26;17;02
Speaker 1


00;26;17;04 - 00;26;40;08
Speaker 2
Yeah. So because you, you know, ultimately we, we know that sickness and, and injuries and death is not Satan's doing. It's, it's the result. But I mean, he, he's the one that led us into that.

00;26;40;10 - 00;26;40;22
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;26;40;22 - 00;27;04;07
Speaker 2
But those things are a result of the father. They're laid at the foot of sin. Adam and Eve. Sin, and Satan had a huge role in that. And so ultimately, we are all going to suffer physically and and we're all going to die. And so the question isn't so much that is, is are we going to believe the truth?

00;27;04;10 - 00;27;08;28
Speaker 2
Nor are we going to believe them a lie in, in, in through all of them.

00;27;09;01 - 00;27;33;24
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, and I, I don't want to come off as downplaying any of this either. I think I think that, you know, some of my suspicion on some of this stuff is just my ignorance on it. I can't say this is a topic that I've studied all that much. And so, it's an interesting one, though. Is there a difference between how he interacts with believers or unbelievers?

00;27;33;24 - 00;27;53;07
Speaker 1
Is that is that is there any kind of information on that? You know, I've, I've heard quite a bit. I think it's become pretty common that it's like the a Christian can't be possessed. Possessed, but a, an unbeliever could be. Is there any biblical warrant for that?

00;27;53;10 - 00;28;26;13
Speaker 2
I think so, we have, inside Corinthians 12, Paul talks about how he has a thorn in the flesh, and he calls it a messenger of Satan sent, basically to torment him. So that's what I would put in terms of oppression. Like God, the devil can oppress, believers. Now, we don't know what that thorn, in the flesh is of people, you know, hypothesize about it.

00;28;26;13 - 00;28;29;13
Speaker 2
Bad eyesight, you know. Yeah, I only.

00;28;29;14 - 00;28;30;07
Speaker 1
Heard that one.

00;28;30;09 - 00;29;09;09
Speaker 2
The hemorrhoids or something like that. I, I don't know, but it was significant, for sure. And, and then we have the examples of, you know, people being demon possessed, Jesus casting out demons from from people. And so, but I do think it is there's a good division. I, I don't believe the scriptures would lead us, to to believe that, a believer who possesses a Holy Spirit can actually be controlled by the devil.

00;29;10;14 - 00;29;32;21
Speaker 2
Jesus is greater. Is he that is in you than he that is in the world. Okay. So we're going to see that here in the Gospel of John. And so the devil's in the world. He that's in us as the Holy Spirit. And Jesus is going to make that really clear. So I think, if a believer could be demon possessed, I think that that would contradict what Jesus is saying there.

00;29;33;23 - 00;29;58;24
Speaker 2
But again, we don't have a whole lot of information about this, but demon possession, is is real and scripture, and I have no doubt that it's still real today, even here in, in our in our country, in our, in our area, I mean, and we, we sometimes even hear through the Ministry of Home Bible Church, we come into contact with this.

00;30;01;17 - 00;30;11;04
Speaker 1
Getting back to, the lies part of this, what are some, some of the most common lies you think Christians are tempted to believe today?

00;30;11;07 - 00;30;37;07
Speaker 2
Well, I hit on those or try to on Sunday is I think almost all of them wrap around identity. And where we find our value and worth their lies about who we are, which is obviously tied into lies about about God and who he is. So if you want to just categorize it, there's lies about God. You know, the nature of God.

00;30;37;10 - 00;31;05;05
Speaker 2
There's lies about humanity, the nature of humanity, who who we are, where we came from, what our purpose is, where we find our value and worth. There's lies about salvation, how somebody is saved, you know, or who is saved. And then that's a company with with lies about, sin. And this is why just a little plug for the first three chapters of the Bible, Genesis one two, three, why they're so essential?

00;31;05;05 - 00;31;31;03
Speaker 2
Because they address literally all all of those things. And your interpretation of those three chapters, and not even your interpretation of your knowledge of those things and what they teach. You know, is, is and I don't know how much time we have here, I'll try to just do a quick rundown, but you've got in the beginning, God created heaven and earth like God's the creator of everything.

00;31;31;06 - 00;32;04;17
Speaker 2
We didn't. You know, if you want to say there was a big bang with a big bang, was that God? Here it is. Okay. And then mankind has made it his image. It. We are literally made God made man in his image. Male and female. He created them. And so everything, you know, everything about gender and sexuality flows out of that, which is one obviously we know the big base lies.

00;32;04;17 - 00;32;40;12
Speaker 2
And then of course, then we get to Genesis three and sin enters into the world. And where to sin come from, and what are the consequences of sin? And then even the remedy for sin is one of the most amazing things about Genesis. Chapter three is we already have the gospel in Genesis chapter three, and how people are saved and we're saved by grace, and we can even see, you know, cloudy, but, saved through faith, grace through faith in Jesus Christ in the first, 15 plus verses of Genesis chapter three.

00;32;40;12 - 00;32;46;23
Speaker 2
And so, yeah, it's a little side note there, but an important one.

00;32;46;25 - 00;33;16;15
Speaker 1
Okay. All right. So I'm going to move on to we got a submitted question. And essentially, you know, coming out of John, eight, 31 to 38, I think this is where he's going with it. So if we look at verse 34, it said Jesus answered them, truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.

00;33;16;15 - 00;33;41;24
Speaker 1
The slave does not remain in the house forever. The son remains forever. So if the son set you free, you will be free indeed. And the question is, how can you explain a Christian that struggles with addiction in, in the context of that, that passage there? And, you know, my assumption is the, the everyone who practices in is a slave to sin.

00;33;41;24 - 00;33;53;27
Speaker 1
And I think there could be some parallels made to addiction and being a slave to sin with a habitual, sin pattern. How how would you kind of square that? And what Jesus is saying here?

00;33;56;26 - 00;34;28;09
Speaker 2
Well, I'm going to begin at a place that may be surprising, but I think is when when we had to start with grace, and we always got to remember that God's grace is greater than our, our sin. And so I think we ought to be. And it's something I've had to learn over time. You got to be be really, really careful, that we, we, we make terribly definitive statements about these matters when it comes to addiction.

00;34;28;12 - 00;35;00;05
Speaker 2
And, and the reason I say that is because, I don't know that we can quantify or should try to quantify what level of addiction, is, is, you know, is like they're, they're this free, but they're not but they're not free. And, you know, like, I think that that, that's problematic and difficult to I think overall, you know, the son says free will be free indeed, but we can be free.

00;35;00;05 - 00;35;30;07
Speaker 2
And I think Romans chapter eight also shows us that you can be free and still be going back to slavery. And Paul's, you know, Paul's teaching there's is you've died to sin. Don't live in it any longer. Well, he wouldn't say that if they weren't living in. It's okay. He's talking to believers. So, you know, I I've gotten less and less comfortable with making big, definitive statements about this.

00;35;30;07 - 00;36;08;03
Speaker 2
I think the, the overall teaching of Scripture is, is that, a believer will not just continually, habitually, over and over again give themselves and show no signs of repentance, remorse, confession, freedom. In this. But on the other hand, I think that, there are people who, can really, really struggle, especially if you, you, you become addicted at a young age and, and just really, really are going to struggle for their, their entire lifetime.

00;36;08;16 - 00;36;35;15
Speaker 2
And that's because of things that they've sometimes that, that have been done to them. And sometimes of the things that they have done, a lot of times it's both of those things. And so, I think the way that I would look at it is if there's never, ever any signs of repentance or turning and there's never any ever freedom, like it's just solid, like, none of that.

00;36;35;15 - 00;37;12;00
Speaker 2
I think that's a pretty good indication that someone is not actually come to know Christ. If there are, though, fits and starts and there are times of freedom in times of falling back into it, even if those times falling back into it or are pretty significant. Is there evidence that, yes, in the Holy Spirit of God is is it is over the course working in their life and we we we got to be careful also that we don't look at just any one moment or any one period in time, but you try to look at the overall big, the big picture of of someone's life.

00;37;12;26 - 00;37;40;20
Speaker 2
And, and so I think it's a is a difficult topic. And depending upon, who, who you are or where you're at in this question, if you're the person that's working with someone like this, or if you are the person who might, we might look at those things differently. But the question is not so much, this is what I stress, not this Sunday.

00;37;40;20 - 00;38;06;29
Speaker 2
But lesson is, it's not what happened in the past. But where are you today? Where are you today? So if someone really is addicted and they are living in that addiction, my, my issue there for, for them is, is like, do you recognize it? Do you, do you see are you, are you, are you willing to fight.

00;38;07;02 - 00;38;21;02
Speaker 2
Is there a fight. Yeah. Yeah. And if there's no fight, that doesn't mean they're not a believer. But, but but the issue is like we need to we need to fight.

00;38;21;04 - 00;38;21;19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;38;21;21 - 00;38;24;01
Speaker 2
At best. Perfectly muddy, I'm sure.

00;38;24;01 - 00;38;36;23
Speaker 1
But, I think that's. I think that's helpful. You know, the question is, do you hate your sin? Like, when when it's happened. Are you remorseful? Are you are you acknowledging that and repenting?

00;38;36;25 - 00;38;42;25
Speaker 2
Well, an even better one is the last point of the message Sunday. Do you do you have a love for Christ?

00;38;42;25 - 00;38;43;19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;38;43;21 - 00;39;07;21
Speaker 2
And yeah, it might not look like it right now and you might really be struggling to. And your heart might be cold, but, you know, it's that, revelation three where Jesus is talking to the seven churches in the first one is Ephesus. You've lost. You know, you've left your first love. And so if you've left your first love, what does Jesus do?

00;39;07;22 - 00;39;22;17
Speaker 2
He comes after him and he says, hey, come back to me, repent and turn and and so then the question becomes, is, is do we do we love him? And are we going to then choose him over our sin?

00;39;22;19 - 00;39;29;29
Speaker 1
It's good you just pulled some, practical application out of revelation. Good judgment.

00;39;30;01 - 00;39;35;23
Speaker 2
You weren't here. But that was the first series I actually did when I came to Harmony.

00;39;35;26 - 00;39;37;16
Speaker 1
How do we get that on cor.

00;39;38;21 - 00;39;44;06
Speaker 2
14, almost 14 years ago? Revelation one through three. Yeah.

00;39;44;28 - 00;40;09;24
Speaker 1
Okay. So another bit of a left turn, although I think it's relevant. And yes, can you discuss the doctrine of Christian perfectionism and why it's wrong? So, you know, going back to this idea of being a slave to sin, I think Jesus makes some definitive statements, in this, in this section. But what what would you say about Christian perfectionism?

00;40;09;24 - 00;40;13;11
Speaker 1
How do we how do we deal with that?

00;40;15;04 - 00;40;42;27
Speaker 2
Well, if there is such thing as Christian perfectionism, then where does sanctification go? Where does our doctrine of sanctification go? It's an it's an incomplete view of salvation. It's been a while since I stress this. So stress is again, salvation is not just, the moment that we place our faith in Jesus and our say, it's not just regeneration and conversion, it's.

00;40;43;00 - 00;41;12;26
Speaker 2
Yeah, you know, election year. And then, sanctification and then glorification. Okay. So so we we were saved. We are saved. We are being saved. We will be saved. And so in just misses out on, you know, a fair part of the Christian life, maybe the entire Christian life in, in my opinion, it is.

00;41;12;28 - 00;41;35;19
Speaker 2
And then we have passages like for John one eight, if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. And the truth is not in us. I don't know how much more definitive that it can can be than that. I, I just think that people who are, they're just deceiving themselves, and I don't I don't want to be harsh here, but can anybody really say that?

00;41;35;19 - 00;41;49;17
Speaker 2
They never like they never sin, never have a bad attitude, a bad thought? Hey, maybe I'm just, you know, worse than than other people, but,

00;41;49;20 - 00;42;24;12
Speaker 1
Well, it makes me question. I don't know that I've ever heard, like, a full orbed positive, argument for it, but it just makes me wonder what the New Testament is for, like, you know, it's it's just full of epistles of of correction, right? For, for the church, for, for believers. And so, you know, he's constantly reminding especially Paul is constantly reminding them of their of their their assurance of salvation in Christ while also correcting them for their sin.

00;42;24;12 - 00;42;27;07
Speaker 1
And so, you know, I don't know, I, I think.

00;42;27;07 - 00;42;59;22
Speaker 2
Well, yeah, I mean, there's only so to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Galatians 419 Paul says, I'm burdened until Christ is formed in, in you. Colossians one and we proclaim warning and teaching everyone that we may present everyone mature in. I mean, it's just like, over and over again. And then we have all these examples in, in Scripture of believers, like even our I and I use this with Abraham on Sunday, even the heroes of the faith, you know, the Hebrews 11, all these, you know, like the whole of faith.

00;42;59;22 - 00;43;28;13
Speaker 2
So we you guys even like, like really, in, in, in, in and I actually think the the problem is, is that it takes the focus off of Christ and puts it on Christian like, it's about like, here's what I'm doing instead of like, if I'm if I'm perfect, I don't need Christ anymore. Right. And like, I don't and that just seems pretty contrary to what I mean.

00;43;28;13 - 00;43;50;07
Speaker 1
I think that that's the practical outworking of it, too, that it just it makes you go inside and it makes you examine yourself and you're. Yeah, you're you don't need you don't need Jesus anymore at that point. So, yeah, I don't know, I think maybe I should actually listen to Christian perfectionism make the case or perfectionist make the case, but I don't.

00;43;50;10 - 00;43;53;04
Speaker 1
Yeah, I don't get it. And I think it's dangerous.

00;43;53;06 - 00;44;15;04
Speaker 2
I agree with you and that I think it's extremely dangerous. And I think it I think it does damage to people who, are, you know, they recognize that they're not perfect. And there must be like, what's going on in me? There must be something defective about me because I'm not perfect.

00;44;15;06 - 00;44;37;11
Speaker 1
Yeah. All right. Well, I think we're going to wrap it there. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, everybody, for listening. If you have any questions, ask it further. Podcast.com and we will talk to you next week.

00;44;37;13 - 00;44;37;29
Speaker 1
We're.