00;00;39;27 - 00;00;52;03
Brenton
Welcome back. Further. I am Brant Grimm. This week we have, two guys preaching that did preach on Sunday, I should say. We got Nathan Williams and Matt Mitchell. How's it going, guys?

00;00;52;06 - 00;00;52;24
Nathan
It's going good.

00;00;52;25 - 00;00;53;13
Matt
Good. Yeah.

00;00;53;13 - 00;00;54;15
Nathan
It's good to be here. Yup.

00;00;54;21 - 00;01;07;10
Brenton
Good. Yeah. Appreciate your work. And prepping for, for this Sunday. You guys were given an entire chapter of John. Yeah. How was that?

00;01;07;13 - 00;01;17;05
Nathan
It was an interesting one. It was. It was like, okay, we can't get into the weeds too much on any one thing. Let's just get through the story and take some application. That's kind of how I.

00;01;17;06 - 00;01;17;25
Matt
Yeah, I.

00;01;17;25 - 00;01;18;20
Nathan
Saw that anyway.

00;01;18;21 - 00;01;34;00
Matt
I saw Nathan's manuscript and he made a comment about we took X amount of weeks to go through one chapter, and then we're going to fly through one and one day. You know, I adopted that to I thought that was good. I was like, yeah, we took six weeks for chapter eight. And here we are flying through chapter nine.

00;01;34;03 - 00;01;57;05
Brenton
Now that's good. And you know, this this story really is just a kind of cohesive narrative of of one story that happened. So it, I think it it flowed well, worked. And you guys did a great job. So, Nathan, I want to start with you. You pointed out that in verse 35, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man.

00;01;57;07 - 00;02;10;18
Brenton
You said, that it was a direct reference from Daniel seven. Could you give us a little background on this? Would you know, at that time, would anyone have recognized what he was saying?

00;02;10;20 - 00;02;44;10
Nathan
Yeah. So, so there's not a ton of references to Jesus as being the Son of Man in, in the Old Testament. But the one in Daniel chapter seven is, is really, really, really strong. And, you know, Daniel has this vision, right? And he sees the Ancient of Days, which is obviously God the Father, and he's talking about God the Father, and he's talking about the end of time when judgment will come upon the earth, you know, I mean, and, you know, I'm just going to read a little bit, you know what I mean?

00;02;44;12 - 00;03;15;09
Nathan
And he says, I saw in the night vision, and behold, with the clouds of heaven, there came one like the Son of Man. And he came to the Ancient of Days. That's God the Father. We can see that if we look back to verse nine and was presented before him, and to him who the Son of Man, and to him was given dominion and glory, and a kingdom that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him.

00;03;15;11 - 00;03;42;29
Nathan
His dominion is never lasting dominion which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall never be destroyed. And we see that language given to like David when it says his day, his kingdom would would go on forever, really, which was really predicting the the Messiah would last would his kingdom would never end. We see the same language here, given to the Son of Man.

00;03;42;29 - 00;04;13;13
Nathan
So it's directly talking about the coming Messiah when it talks about one like the Son of Man. So basically it's deity. It's talking about deity, his dominion lasting forever. He's eternal, but he he is in the appearance as the Son of Man. So he is in human flesh now. Now, would the people of his day recognize this? Or would they have noticed that now people who would have been familiar with this?

00;04;13;13 - 00;04;32;04
Nathan
And we're talking about the scribes, the Pharisees, these are guys who are known for being able to memorize and quote the whole story. Right? Yeah. They knew it were. That's that's that was their job to sit and study the word of God. So they would have been very familiar with this and they would recognize it. Here's an interesting one.

00;04;33;24 - 00;04;57;09
Nathan
And in in Mark chapter 14, Jesus is standing on trial and, that the high priest is questioning him and he says, he says again, the high priest asked him, are you the Christ, the son of the blessed? Now we hear he calls him the son of the blessed. And Jesus says, I am. And you will see the Son of Man here.

00;04;57;09 - 00;05;23;20
Nathan
He uses that very phrase, the Son of Man seated, seated at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of glory. Now what's the response that he gets to this? He will go. And the high priest tore his garment and says, what further witness do we need? You have heard his blasphemy. He recognize this term as claiming to be the Son of Man, as claiming to be the Messiah.

00;05;23;23 - 00;05;55;01
Nathan
God in human flesh. Now, he didn't like it because he didn't wasn't ready to affirm that Jesus was the Messiah. But Jesus recognized this term as I'm God in human flesh, the Son of Man, referencing back to Daniel chapter seven. And, the high priest recognized it here. So I think the people back in his days in the story would probably recognize that term two as one of us of referring to the Messiah.

00;05;55;08 - 00;05;55;29
Nathan
Yeah.

00;05;56;02 - 00;06;22;05
Brenton
Okay. I think you answered that for me. I do want to spend some time on what Jesus said in verse three. Just for some background on it, his disciples asked him, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind? And then Jesus answered them by saying, it was not that this man sinned or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

00;06;22;08 - 00;06;44;29
Brenton
And you know this this is a fairly common response to suffering. You know, we can quickly associate it with our own sin, that it's a punishment for something we did. We even see this in the book of job, where, you know, his friends accuse him of bringing the suffering on himself through his sin. What? What are your thoughts on this for both of you?

00;06;45;00 - 00;06;52;14
Brenton
Is it always wrong to assume that our suffering is a result of our sin?

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Matt
Yeah. I'll start off. Is it always wrong to assume that's the question? More time?

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Brenton
Yeah. Is it? Is it always wrong to assume that our suffering is a result of sin? Right. Like, should that be our first response to, suffering?

00;07;08;02 - 00;07;26;28
Matt
I definitely don't think it should be our first response for a few pastoral reasons. And just trying to, not be paranoid because you can start you can play that game and it can go down a really bad path really easily is something somebody has a diagnosis or I've got a fever and I must have done something. Yeah.

00;07;27;04 - 00;07;41;23
Matt
However, I, I think some great examples, the Jobe example, I would say is one of the best ones. His friends agreed with him, but then eventually they're just like, nah, like, we think you did something wrong. That's why you're here, Jobe. Like, that's all we can think of. That wasn't true.

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Nathan
Yeah.

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Matt
I do think it's interesting, though, that even within the Gospel of John, I had the privilege of preaching chapter five, The Healing of a man at the pool, Bethesda. And in that account, Jesus heals this guy who'd been paralyzed for 30 some years. And then he finds him afterwards and he says, see, you are well. This is in chapter five, verse 14, sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.

00;08;07;28 - 00;08;26;26
Matt
Okay, here's what it's like in chapter five. It's like this guy's sin led him into this position. That's what Jesus is implying. So he's like, hey, I've made you well, don't keep sinning. John, chapter eight is kind of similar. Like the woman caught in adultery. Jesus sets her free. Does can everybody says go and sin no more?

00;08;26;29 - 00;08;45;19
Matt
But then in this passage, he's like, no, this guy is not blind because of his sin or his parents. And so you've got a little bit of both. I think it takes some discernment. I think it if you're part of a healthy church, I would weigh in on this with others that you believe are godly in some of your pastors.

00;08;46;17 - 00;08;52;22
Matt
I think, Jim, Nathan's got a passage I was going to pull up to. I'll kick it over to him, though. Yeah.

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Nathan
Yeah, it's not either or. I think Matt answered that very well. It takes some discernment. If I'm sick, probably the first thing I should should ask myself is, am I experiencing this because of my sinful actions? We we see before I get into James here, we see in first Corinthians 11, oh, it's talking about taking communion near me.

00;09;17;03 - 00;09;38;09
Nathan
And, and it says, hey, if if some of you are doing it in an unworthy manner, in other words, you're being sinful about the way you're doing it and the result of this, they were told that is why some of you are weak and ill and some have died, you know, I mean, which is. Yeah, but but yeah but but in but in James.

00;09;38;10 - 00;10;11;06
Nathan
But yeah that's pretty serious there. Right. But in in in James chapter five. We see that, James is saying if any of you are sick among you call on the elders that they may come and pray over you. And, and if there is sin involved, that you will be forgiven and you will be healed, you know, so here it has the connotation of that you might be ill because of sin, and you need to confess that.

00;10;11;11 - 00;10;45;01
Nathan
However, in the same book, James chapter one, James has the gives the idea that we face trials and tribulations, not necessarily for for our sin at all, but because our faith is made stronger through those trials. Consider it pure joy. My, my, my brothers, when you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance and perseverance must finish his work, that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.

00;10;45;05 - 00;11;15;21
Nathan
God uses hard things, trials which could be illness to sometimes grow our faith and make us more mature and complete, lacking nothing. So. So, like Matt said, we got to use our discernment. First of all, we gotta ask ourselves, why am I in this state? Am I in this state? Because of my sinful actions, we can look to places in the Bible that the result of David losing his son was because of David's sinful actions.

00;11;15;21 - 00;11;38;10
Nathan
He was told, because of this, your son will die, you know? But in other cases, like in Jobe, like Joseph, my goodness, I love the story of Joseph. Here's Joseph, a man that of all the people in the Bible, there's nothing really negative written about Joseph here. Yeah. And he was he was. His brothers wanted to kill him.

00;11;38;10 - 00;12;01;05
Nathan
They soloed with a slave. He was falsely accused. He was in prison. All these things that he's. I'm sure he was like, what in the world? Why am I going through this? Never once did it say it was because of sin. And we don't see till chapter 45, when he finally confesses to his brothers who he really is, and they're shaking in their boots and he says, you didn't send me here.

00;12;01;08 - 00;12;20;25
Nathan
God did. And then in chapter 51, they're shaking their boots again because now dad's dead and they says, oh, he's going to he's definitely going to kill us now. And he says, what you intended for evil. God intended for good so that many souls could be saved. You know, he was able to look back and see God's hand in it the whole time.

00;12;20;25 - 00;12;37;17
Nathan
So, yeah, so are we sick? Should we stop and ask ourselves, is this because of some of my actions? I mean, let's just face it, if I'm if I'm a hardcore alcoholic and I get get liver, cirrhosis of the liver, it's probably because of my sinful drinking, right?

00;12;37;19 - 00;13;01;17
Brenton
Sure. Yeah, yeah. And maybe, you know, there's a division there between like, you know, the practical results of, of our sin, like obviously going to be natural results from those things. But I do I appreciate the, the point to discernment because I think that, you know, like Matt said, we don't want to be going down that road every time we get a cough or whatever.

00;13;01;17 - 00;13;30;23
Brenton
Oh, what did I do to deserve this? And because I think partly it can be, you know, just a false view of God that he's kind of out to get us all the time. But also, you know, that's another reason for us to live in close community and be known by others in the church that we can, you know, people can speak truth into our lives and we can actually, discern together what, what's causing these things.

00;13;30;23 - 00;13;42;23
Brenton
But yeah, those are some good examples. You know, the David one, that's a that's a hard story there. Oh that's tough. And you know, that is a clear result of, of the sin that that is father.

00;13;42;25 - 00;14;05;09
Nathan
Right. What, what even looking at the story we cover, you know, I mean he was healed. So the glory of the God could be seen. And to think of a more modern day example of that, I think of John, Johnny Erickson's and toddler Johnny Erickson's daughter. I mean, here's a young teenage girl who none of we all know her name.

00;14;05;11 - 00;14;14;10
Nathan
Yeah. And had she not been paralyzed as a teenager and then devoted her life to ministering for the Lord, you know, so never know her name.

00;14;14;13 - 00;14;17;11
Brenton
We wish you watch the Olympics. Maybe.

00;14;17;14 - 00;14;37;00
Nathan
Yeah, maybe. Who knows? But but but yeah, I mean, believable how God can take tragedy and and turn it into something just beautiful. Not necessarily because of anyone's sin or not, but because he wants to do something better through it.

00;14;38;25 - 00;15;05;02
Matt
Yeah. And the way I, I think I would lean back on summarizing the discernment piece is there's two good spots in the Psalms. I was looking for the one, just about. Yeah. Is something happening? Is it my sin or is it not my sin? David says in Psalm 19 at the end, he says, who perceives his unintentional sins?

00;15;05;02 - 00;15;25;09
Matt
Cleanse me from my hidden faults. Moreover, keep your servant from willful sins. Do not let them rule over me. And then he goes on, says May the words of my mouth meditation of my heart, be pleasing to you. Psalm 139 says, search me in. Know me God, see if there be any grievous way in me. But yeah, like Nathan started off this way, I think just we need to examine ourselves.

00;15;25;09 - 00;15;42;27
Matt
Well, but if we have a clear conscience before the Lord and no one else is pointing out something in our life that's obvious, we might just be going through something so that the works of God may be on display, and we might grow closer to him. Yeah, I think we need to.

00;15;42;29 - 00;16;10;01
Nathan
Let me just give you one more really practical example of this that I've seen personally and people who have been healthy, wealthy, and all of a sudden disaster strikes. What do they do? They seek God in army. Until disaster strikes, they have no time for God. But all of a sudden they realize the frailty of life, which is basically Jesus example of the camel going through the eye of a needle.

00;16;10;04 - 00;16;31;10
Nathan
If we got everything we need, we don't need God. But, the poor man, the man who is maybe health or, or deprived or whatever, we realize we need God so God can bring. That's why we can rejoice in the Lord in all things. Because God can bring great things out of great tragedy, you know?

00;16;31;12 - 00;16;44;22
Brenton
So then is it is it safe to assume that as we suffer that, our sufferings are always used for God's purposes?

00;16;44;24 - 00;17;01;18
Nathan
I think it depends on, on how you look at it. I mean, I can take two attitudes and I'm going through suffering. I can shake my fist at God, blame God. A lot of people do that. Or I can say, God, what's your purpose in this for me? Now I got to take the, you know, rejoice in the Lord always.

00;17;01;20 - 00;17;27;00
Nathan
And again I say, Rich, say rejoice and it doesn't say rejoice just in the heart, in the in the easy times. The good times always means even in the hard times. And it makes me think in a different way. It makes me think it's like, what God, have you got through for me, through this, in this? Then I can actually show your glory to others through my suffering.

00;17;27;00 - 00;17;45;21
Brenton
You. Yeah, I, I think, you know, I guess is it is it right for us to think that God is always working through our suffering, like does he? Does he always have a purpose no matter how we respond to that? Does he have purpose in our suffering?

00;17;45;23 - 00;18;09;20
Matt
I would say absolutely. I mean, just thinking about all of chapter eight of Romans, you know, would make that point. We grown, things aren't as they should be, but God's working the good for those who are called according to his purposes. And then I finish my sermon with first Peter three or first Peter, chapter one 3 to 9.

00;18;09;21 - 00;18;35;06
Matt
I'm not going to read the whole thing, but he just says like, blessed be God for this blessed hope. We have this living hope. And then he says, you rejoice in this even though now for a little while, if necessary, you've been grieved by various trials. And then he says, so that the tested genuineness of your faith, even though it's more precious than gold, though it perishes, though tested through fire, may result in the praise and the glory and the honor of at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

00;18;35;06 - 00;18;53;08
Matt
So just, God's using suffering to burn up that which doesn't matter and which is not priceless. But that which, is precious, like, you know, gold, precious metals, our faith in him and our life in him, that's what's going to last. And so the reason that.

00;18;53;09 - 00;19;17;23
Brenton
I think that's so important to remember, too, that as we as we suffer, God's purposes aren't necessarily our purposes. And so, you know, you brought up, you brought up Romans eight, like the the purpose there is conformity to Christ. And we've talked over that, you know, quite a bit on the podcast lately, but realizing that, you know, God's purpose isn't always our what we think our best is.

00;19;17;23 - 00;19;31;06
Brenton
It's always conformity to the son. And so, yeah, if if we can align our hearts with with God's will in that, that we want to become, you know, more like Christ, then I think we're probably going to be a lot better off in our suffering.

00;19;31;06 - 00;19;33;03
Matt
But yeah, I agree.

00;19;33;08 - 00;19;50;18
Brenton
Yeah. That's good. I guess one more question. With all of that, how can how can this passage and you know what what Jesus says about about this guy's suffering, how can that help us engage with other believers who are suffering?

00;19;50;21 - 00;20;11;23
Nathan
Yeah, this whole topic is is really, really hard. And and sometimes we can't we don't know when we're going through. We don't know the purpose. And here's where faith comes in. It's the store. Back to the story of Joseph when he was going through all that he didn't know. It's not all 45 and now he's ruler of the land.

00;20;11;25 - 00;20;35;01
Nathan
Take a look back and says, wait a second, you guys did send me. But no, it wasn't really you. It was God who sent me. God had a purpose even though I didn't know about it then. So? So the faith is being sure of what we do not see. Okay. And yeah. Hebrews 11 one and, and here's the deal.

00;20;35;03 - 00;20;57;08
Nathan
That's where we just got to encourage people. Hey I know you're going through a lot. I don't know what God's purpose is in this. You don't. We may never know until the other side. Till we're in heaven, until we're in glory. But, he's got a purpose. He's got a purpose. Sometimes it might be to bring us back to him.

00;20;57;10 - 00;21;19;11
Nathan
Sometimes as so that people could see us working out our faith and somebody we may not even know, someone, or we're in a hospital and. And maybe there's a nurse watching, you know, I mean, seeing our faith in this, we don't know, but it's faith. It's faith. Do I know exactly why I'm going through this suffering? Know.

00;21;19;13 - 00;21;40;19
Nathan
But God has a purpose, which goes back to what we talked about earlier is or always. So purpose in our suffering. Does God have a purpose in that? It's hard. But we just got to encourage people through through the scriptures that we've already talked about. The yeah, that we've already talked about that, that God's got a purpose.

00;21;40;19 - 00;21;56;12
Nathan
We got to rejoice in him always. All things work together. Not some things. All for those who love God or are called according to his purpose. So if you love God, he's got a purpose in it. Do we know what it is? Not necessarily, but he does.

00;21;56;15 - 00;22;10;18
Matt
Yeah. And I would just say to I think right in the passage, I agree with everything you just said, Nathan. And I think right in the passage too, we can find some wisdom because the disciples have this assumption about this guy's suffering. It's wrong.

00;22;10;20 - 00;22;11;15
Nathan


00;22;11;17 - 00;22;30;00
Matt
But Jesus knows and I just think it's good for us not to make assumptions. Yeah. And to say, I don't know why this is going on, but we know Jesus knows and he's with us and he's going to use it ultimately. But let me pray for you and let me just be in this with you and grieve with you.

00;22;30;03 - 00;22;39;25
Matt
And, let me know how I can help kind of thing. So just. Yeah, not not coming to an assumption too quick. Yeah. I think we could learn maybe a lesson there.

00;22;39;28 - 00;22;41;08
Nathan
Know.

00;22;41;11 - 00;23;04;03
Brenton
All right. Both of you talked about the Pharisees and their use of the Sabbath law. You said that they came up with 39 classes of work that were forbidden and said that they were being legalistic. Okay, so can you expand on this a little bit, both of you? Do you know what these classes were like?

00;23;04;09 - 00;23;07;22
Brenton
What do we know about this? Where does this come from?

00;23;07;24 - 00;23;25;25
Matt
Yeah, I'll give my best at this every time the Sabbath gets brought up in the Gospels, a commentary will often reference, you know, Jesus isn't breaking the Sabbath, but there's what the Mosaic law says. And then there's these 39 things, and there's way more than that. I think even.

00;23;25;27 - 00;23;33;29
Nathan
I think I just 39 just about laws from keeping the Sabbath. Yes, yes, yes, along with hundreds of other, yes, the other commandments. But go.

00;23;33;29 - 00;23;58;28
Matt
Ahead. No. Exactly. Yeah. You're exactly right. So it's God gave us this law. Keep the Sabbath day holy and set apart to the Lord. And so don't work but rest. And then they added all these other laws to enforce the original law, which we live in this totally different day and culture. But I would probably I'd go as far to say that's probably not a good idea, making laws to help support the first law.

00;23;59;13 - 00;24;35;16
Matt
Especially if the first law was from God. But, I, I looked this up earlier today, the 39 laws, actually, none of the extra ones, none of them talk about, healing, or mending a bone or anything like that. But there is other tradition around this time. It sounds like that was a that was finally written down in around like 200 A.D and the the Mishnah, this Jewish document that was kind of spells it all out, but it sounds like the rabbis in Jesus time already had, people trained pretty well.

00;24;35;16 - 00;24;44;08
Matt
Here's what's acceptable, here's what's not. And according to them, not to God. Jesus was violating their little, extras. So.

00;24;44;10 - 00;25;01;16
Brenton
Okay. You know, obviously keeping the Sabbath is an important command that was given to us by God. So we wouldn't deny that. At what point in our obeying God's law can it become legalism?

00;25;01;18 - 00;25;21;16
Nathan
Well, I think, you know, Jesus actually addressed this. You know, I mean, he he says you tie these burdens on people. You know what I mean? The whole idea of the Sabbath was a day of rest, a day where we well, we wouldn't have to work. We could relax, we could recuperate. God knows we need rest. And Jesus went off in a quiet place to get ready.

00;25;21;17 - 00;25;44;00
Nathan
He knows we need rest. It's recharging our batteries. And and so that was the whole intent of that, that the commandment. Now I believe we should keep it. But all of a sudden it's like, well, what's restful for you and what's restful for me? I shouldn't, to me and a nice sunny afternoon to go. Go for a walk down by the river.

00;25;44;02 - 00;26;07;02
Nathan
Oh. It's great. Someone else's. You're walking on the Sabbath, you know. I mean, that's working for me. So, so so let's not take what God intended for our good and make it so burdensome. And that's what the Pharisees were doing. They were saying, well, I think this is work. I think that is work. I think the others work and they're putting the burdens on the people.

00;26;07;05 - 00;26;29;23
Nathan
It's it's making laws to keep them. It's kind of, how can I say it? You know what I mean? It's like, if anybody's got an addiction now a day, right? Well, let's just use the, the, the addiction to pornography, right? Because that seems to be a big one. Right. Well, you you don't have a phone, you don't have a computer, you don't.

00;26;29;25 - 00;26;53;20
Nathan
This, that and the other. I think there are good things for someone who's struggling with that. But should that be a law for absolutely everyone? Because I'll tell you what, having a phone and a computer is a great missional tools as well. But but here, here was the Pharisees putting these legalistic laws that applied to absolutely everything, because they were the laws to keep from breaking the laws.

00;26;53;20 - 00;27;00;17
Nathan
And it became so burdensome on everybody. Maybe that's not a great example, but yeah.

00;27;00;20 - 00;27;24;26
Matt
I see what you're saying. And I, I think a lot of it comes back to May. All of it comes back to what Chris taught through the All In series. Our theme passage was when the religious leaders come to Jesus and say, what's the most important commandment? And he summarizes all of them and says, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

00;27;25;08 - 00;27;46;29
Matt
All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments. And so Sabbath, all the other ten commandments. Thou shall not murder like it's not good to murder, but like is it just because it says that what's. I'm not loving my neighbor. I'm not loving God. If I'm murdering somebody, it's not just like, you know, God said it, so I'm going to do it.

00;27;47;02 - 00;28;07;07
Matt
It is that. But it's it's way bigger than that. God doesn't take innocent blood, you know, I'm, like, resembling who he is. So, loving my neighbor as myself. And Sabbath is this gift. And so it's like. It's not like I feel better about myself. I've, you know, I'm achieving my own righteousness by observing the Sabbath.

00;28;07;07 - 00;28;24;03
Matt
It's like, no, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And I need to enjoy this gift because my life is about loving God, with all my heart, mind and soul and strength. And so I don't know if that helps if if we're trying to obey God's commands this summer, is it for trying to obey God's commands?

00;28;24;06 - 00;28;31;10
Matt
But our affection and love for God is not at the center of that. We're really missing it. That's Howard. Summarize it.

00;28;31;13 - 00;28;32;00
Nathan
Yeah.

00;28;32;02 - 00;29;14;09
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. That's good. I think just as I thought through that a little bit, I, you know, the Sabbath, I think nowadays, you know, it's still one of the Ten Commandments, right, right. That's an important one. I think it can get overlooked. Pretty heavily. And so, you know, when, when we are pushing, for, for someone to obey that commandment and to rest, like, I think that can come off as, as legalism, because that's something that's not held up highly today where as opposed to like, you know, the sixth commandment of you, you shouldn't murder.

00;29;14;10 - 00;29;53;12
Brenton
Yeah, right. That one's accepted and we have no problem obeying that. But, you know, I think, I think that just there can be an accusation of legalism over something that just isn't, highly held today. And so I think, you know, I think you're right in calling this what it was, what the Pharisees were doing. But there's also they're there is also just an importance of us saying, okay, like, I want to obey God in this, even in this thing that maybe I don't understand, maybe like, it's it's hard for me to take a day off, off of work for a week and maybe I don't see value in it, but I

00;29;53;13 - 00;29;58;28
Brenton
like there's still value in just obeying God. And then. Yeah. Does that make sense? Absolutely.

00;29;59;01 - 00;30;21;18
Nathan
As Jesus said, man, the Sabbath was made for man and man for the Sabbath. So, so understanding that this is the Sabbath commandment was actually made for God, his compassion and his love for us. And, and and if we want to be healthy, basically in mind and body like he was.

00;30;21;18 - 00;30;22;20
Brenton
Right.

00;30;22;23 - 00;30;52;15
Nathan
Right, right. But, but but literally physically healthy, mentally and physically. This is one of the commandments that we should we should really, not because it's really detrimental to other people, like murdering or committing adultery, but this is a commandment. And I think that that really is God shows God's love for us. And and we can really benefit from really keeping this commandment to for sure.

00;30;52;17 - 00;31;23;02
Brenton
Okay. So I guess we'll kind of end with this. We can spend some time on it. But this, this passage really contrasts the blind man's joy and and his boldness with the religious leaders stubbornness, essentially. So how how can we guard against becoming cynical or skeptical of God's work like we see the Pharisees here, you know, they they see this miracle happen and the the automatic response is like, no, that didn't happen.

00;31;23;08 - 00;31;42;29
Brenton
Or, you know, how did this happen? It was, you know, it's not a it's not a, it's very different than how the blind man responded to it. So how can we kind of avoid nowadays not becoming cynical toward toward what God does?

00;31;43;01 - 00;32;06;23
Matt
Is a very great question. The first thing that comes to mind, I think that's similar in how you phrase this and what comes to mind is in Luke 15, the parable of the prodigal son. There's the son that goes away, and he squanders everything and he comes back. But the father's has this amazing joy, throws a party for him.

00;32;08;11 - 00;32;49;16
Matt
We actually don't know how the son, the son, responded. And he was really like, you know, down on himself and thought he had earned his way back and whatever else. But the father was overjoyed. But then there's this older son who's ticked off, and he doesn't enter into his father's joy. And Jesus was telling that story. He's like, the Pharisees are this way when sinners are coming to God and, but the reason I think about that is just this older son mentality, this Pharisee mentality, I think mainly comes from forgetting that our faith is about having this rich, vibrant, healthy relationship with God our father.

00;32;49;19 - 00;33;21;14
Matt
And it's not about all the stuff or all the rules or the lifestyle or, being right, you know? But I think that they made it everything about themselves. Even though it looked good on the outside, it was dead men's bones and filthy on the inside. So if that's, I think, taking our eyes off of Jesus, off of what we've been saved for, this relationship with the one true and living God, I think that can suck our joy away faster than anything.

00;33;21;14 - 00;33;23;05
Matt
So that's that's where I would start.

00;33;23;20 - 00;33;43;08
Nathan
You know, it's funny how you mentioned dead men's bones and, comes from Ezekiel, you know, dry bones. And and I was just actually thinking of a verse in Ezekiel to Ezekiel, 3626. I will give you a new heart and put in you a new spirit, and I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

00;33;43;08 - 00;34;07;09
Nathan
I think it's really a heart issue. It's a heart if I if I'm reading the Bible, just wanting to see Jesus and wanting to see God and His will, it's going to wash over me. And I'm going to enjoy it. If I'm reading God's Word, trying to disprove it. Like the Pharisees were basically, he's going to he's not going to give us a new heart.

00;34;07;13 - 00;34;34;24
Nathan
He's not going to give us what we have, that heart of stone. And, and and Jesus says, you know what? I've come that saying people will become blind. He says, if you want to reject me, guess what? I'm not going to even give you a heart of flesh. And that's a scary thought right there. The very same reason when the disciples said, hey, how can you speak in Paris's, parables?

00;34;34;24 - 00;34;58;14
Nathan
Sorry. So that those who hear may not understand. I mean, that's a scary thing. Do we want to harden our heart? Because if we harden our heart, God's going to let it be hard. But if we have a heart issue, do we want to know God? We're going to have the joy of the blind man when he comes to see and he begins to understand.

00;34;58;18 - 00;35;23;24
Nathan
And, and and here's the uneducated man who gets it, who gets it, and the joy he has in that. And, and and he says, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped. And here's the Pharisees who knew the Word of God inside and out. But the heart was so hard that they refused to believe. It's got to be a heart issue.

00;35;23;27 - 00;35;24;26
Nathan
Yeah.

00;35;24;29 - 00;35;47;23
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, isn't there. You see Jesus is the one that comes to the blind man and actually opens his eyes. Right. And so he's obviously not opening the eyes of the Pharisees. Right. Like, like you said with the, with the parables, like there's a reason he spoke in parables. Those people is he you know, he was going to open their eyes, but.

00;35;47;23 - 00;36;10;06
Nathan
Yeah. Well, just, just, just even the last verse there, Jesus is, what does he say there? And. Second last verse for judgment. I came to the one of the those who who do not see may see that I love that part. That's a great one. But the next part is, and those who see may become blind.

00;36;10;20 - 00;36;34;20
Nathan
I really struggled with that, to be quite honest with you. Until you really get to grasp that and sort of say, you know what I maybe see physically, but I think this is really messed with. If I think I see what I think I see without Jesus, that I've got my own way, that I am spiritually blind and I am lost.

00;36;34;20 - 00;36;54;02
Nathan
And that's a scary thing. You know, and Jesus said, you know, Jesus says some really hard things, you know what I mean? But, but it's the truth. And, just because we don't like it doesn't mean to say it's the truth. And we gotta we gotta wrap our heads around that and sort of say, you know what?

00;36;54;02 - 00;37;09;29
Nathan
That's a scary thing for me. If I've got a hard heart and I think I've got it all together and I don't need Jesus, this is a great warning to anybody out there, really, who thinks they've got it without Jesus, because they don't. They're still blind. Yeah.

00;37;10;01 - 00;37;26;06
Brenton
That's good. Okay, so on the flip side of that, what what should the type of, you know, spiritual sight that the blind man receive? What what he received look like for us today? What is what is spiritual sight? Look for us, look like for us today?

00;37;26;09 - 00;37;52;15
Matt
I think it's going. Yeah. On the positive side, the flip side, it's exactly the opposite of what Nathan was just saying. And that's you get to this place of desperation and helplessness because you don't have it figured out. And you're like, I don't see. And therefore you it's at that moment you're able to see Jesus and and he's, he's ready and willing to work.

00;37;52;18 - 00;38;10;26
Matt
I'm I'm thinking of the sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5 to 7. The main thing in the sermon on the Mount is Jesus says, your your righteousness needs to surpass the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. What he wasn't saying, like, they're doing a great job. You need to do better. He was saying, they're not doing a great job.

00;38;10;26 - 00;38;30;06
Matt
That's not what real righteousness is, is everything I'm teaching. But the beginning of that is the Beatitudes and the first ones, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they will receive sight. You know, it's like another way you could say it spiritual sight. But the Pharisees and the scribes, they were never poor in spirit.

00;38;30;08 - 00;38;51;13
Matt
They were never beaten their chests and Lord, forgive me, a sinner, you know, and, that's that the big warning is, or really, we could just take courage and if, like, you're discouraged and you feel like you're failing and you're not doing hot and like, that's where God meets you and that's where you can, you can see,

00;38;51;15 - 00;39;11;12
Matt
So, yeah, I just a proud person will never be saved. No one ever, surrenders their life to Jesus or understands the gospel in a moment of, pride, and let alone a lifestyle of pride. But in that humility, that's where the eyes are opened.

00;39;11;15 - 00;39;33;02
Nathan
Matt, before we started here today, you were talking about one of the main things here is this. This blind man getting his sight so that he can see Jesus and and that's so true, because unless any of us see Jesus for who he really is, the Son of Man, the Messiah, God coming for human flesh, we are blind.

00;39;33;05 - 00;39;57;28
Nathan
And that's where we get our spiritual sight. Is is it really boils until we see Jesus for who he really is? And only see him for who he really is. But but like the bio man says, I believe and worship him. It takes us to the next step. We would not believe in, but put our faith in, choose to follow him.

00;39;58;00 - 00;40;18;09
Nathan
We are spiritual blind. So so that's the key for me is like until that happens, we're blind. We're lost in our trespasses and sins. When we trust in Jesus, he takes away the scales from our eyes. We see in a spiritual sense who he really is. And that's where we can start rejoicing.

00;40;18;12 - 00;40;24;22
Brenton
It's good. All right, well, let's end it there. Appreciate you guys coming in. Thanks for your work.

00;40;24;24 - 00;40;25;19
Nathan
This could be in here.

00;40;25;20 - 00;40;33;09
Brenton
Yeah. If you guys have any questions at home, ask it further. Podcast.com, and, yeah, we'll talk to you next week.