[01:00:10:00 - 01:00:14:15]
Chris
 That's why we've got to know God's word. And my theology really, truly does matter.

[01:00:14:15 - 01:00:34:03]
Chris
 Why I love to preach God's word and why I try to do it so passionately, because it's not just facts or things that don't really matter to the day-to-day of our lives. They literally matter in everything we do, every environment we live, every relationship that we are in.

[01:00:34:03 - 01:00:35:14]
 (Music Playing)

[01:00:35:14 - 01:00:39:07]
Brenton
 Welcome back to Further. I am Brenton Grimm. How you doing, Chris?

[01:00:39:07 - 01:00:44:12]
Chris
 Good. It's a beautiful day today. Had a great-- coming off a great Father's Day.

[01:00:44:12 - 01:00:45:17]
Brenton
 So-- Yeah, happy Father's Day.

[01:00:45:17 - 01:00:47:04]
Chris
 Yeah, you too. I'm doing something special.

[01:00:47:04 - 01:01:15:13]
Chris
 Well, had a couple of my kids, three of my kids, I guess. And my grandkids over. So-- Cool. And I guess I can share this publicly now, but my daughter's also pregnant. So number five is on the way. So my daughter-in-law is pregnant. She's due here in August. And then my daughter is due the day after my birthday. So I don't know what happens to that child who's born in the same day.

[01:01:15:13 - 01:01:16:07]
Brenton
 Happy birthday, buddy.

[01:01:16:07 - 01:01:18:20]
Chris
 You're not supposed to have favorites, but no.

[01:01:18:20 - 01:01:28:00]
Chris
 But yeah, it's great. Family keeps growing and really, really blessed with my kids and my grandkids and my in-laws.

[01:01:28:00 - 01:01:30:07]
Brenton
 For sure. Yeah. Well, great.

[01:01:30:07 - 01:01:38:00]
Brenton
 All right, on to John 10. So verse 10 says, "I came that they may have life and have it abundantly."

[01:01:38:00 - 01:01:45:04]
Brenton
 I have personally heard this verse taught in a way that really just pushes the prosperity gospel,

[01:01:45:04 - 01:01:50:10]
Brenton
 that our abundant life in Christ means that we will be blessed with material possessions.

[01:01:50:10 - 01:01:54:11]
Brenton
 Actually, in this case, it was also done in the context of an orphanage in Africa.

[01:01:54:11 - 01:02:02:17]
Brenton
 And I think I saw there how just destructive that teaching can be, especially when we're talking to an impoverished people.

[01:02:02:17 - 01:02:05:10]
Brenton
 Because it essentially puts all the responsibility on them.

[01:02:05:10 - 01:02:14:00]
Brenton
 So essentially, if they don't have what they need, it's because they aren't truly trusting Jesus, right? Right.

[01:02:14:00 - 01:02:20:22]
Brenton
 So what would you say the other dangers are in reading John 10 this way?

[01:02:20:22 - 01:02:26:17]
Chris
 Well, the first one goes along with what you're saying here is it just destroys people's faith.

[01:02:26:17 - 01:02:47:17]
Chris
 Because where does that actually lead someone if it's my responsibility, if I just didn't have enough faith? Well, there must be something wrong with me. Because if I had that true faith, then I would be having all of these blessings too.

[01:02:47:17 - 01:03:37:23]
Chris
 And I think that's a perfect example of a thief and robber like Jesus is talking about. And I'm going to refer a little bit, because we've got another question about that coming up here. So that's the part that can really make you angry if you've traveled to very impoverished places in particular. And you've been to Africa. I've spent some time there. I've been there a number of times actually. And it's just you see supposed Christianity all over the place. I mean, businesses are agape, you know, and to see that and love of God and blessings of the Spirit and all those kind of things. And not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that. But there's huge,

[01:03:37:23 - 01:03:59:02]
Chris
 even mega churches in Africa, numerous parts of Africa. In fact, a couple of our elders just got back from a trip to Kenya not too long ago. And they went to visited. They didn't actually go to the church, but visited isn't one of the biggest warehouses they'd ever seen in their life.

[01:03:59:02 - 01:04:00:03]
Chris
 And with folding chairs,

[01:04:00:03 - 01:04:35:03]
Chris
 ad nauseam, they couldn't even count how many there were. And this guy is traveling all over the place, and he's fabulously wealthy. But these people, by a large part, most of them are literally poor than you. Like here in America, we have poverty. But this is another level of poverty. And so it's just really destructive to people's faith. And ultimately to the gospel, because then the gospel is misunderstood, and people misunderstand the gospel.

[01:04:35:03 - 01:04:38:02]
Chris
 Then we're talking about salvation as a stake.

[01:04:38:02 - 01:04:50:16]
Chris
 So I think the other danger in this is where we actually get focused on material possessions, and we think that that's actually where life is found.

[01:04:50:16 - 01:05:13:23]
Chris
 And this is maybe more of the American version than an African version. Or an American struggle might be more than an African struggle, although they're similar in many ways. It's just like we think that what's going to make us happy, and in terms of the Sermon on the Mount, the blessed,

[01:05:13:23 - 01:05:33:19]
Chris
 happy, satisfied, fulfilled life is material and physical possessions. That's just something we should say there. It's not only material blessings, but it's physical. You're going to have health. That's why it's called health and wealth. And so I think it's just absolutely insidious.

[01:05:33:19 - 01:05:43:23]
Brenton
 Yeah, and I think I was struck at that point, too. It was just like not the point of verse 10 at all, like chapter 10, John. It's just so out of left field there.

[01:05:43:23 - 01:06:01:23]
Brenton
 So you also connected, you talked about the abundant life and what that actually looks like. You connected it to Psalm 23, and I'm curious just kind of from a Bible study perspective, how did you get there? How did you connect Psalm 23 to John 10?

[01:06:01:23 - 01:06:32:17]
Chris
 Well, I mean, as I mentioned, the shepherd sheep imagery metaphor is all over the Bible. And I only mentioned even a handful of them. There's all over the place, and this is a very prominent one. But it begins the Lord. And if you read in your English version, it's capital L-O-R-D, which is Yahweh, or I am. And we just saw at the end of chapter 8 is Jesus identifying himself as the Lord.

[01:06:32:17 - 01:06:55:16]
Chris
 So the authors of scripture are authors or writers. They actually think through under the leading and guiding and directing of the Holy Spirit about how to tell their gospel story in a way that goes to drive home truths to us.

[01:06:55:16 - 01:07:14:07]
Chris
 And so I think that just a natural reading that the Holy Spirit would have us now when we read back in Psalm 23 to think that Jesus is our shepherd, which is what he says, "I am the good shepherd."

[01:07:14:07 - 01:07:15:14]
Brenton
 Yeah, right.

[01:07:15:14 - 01:07:15:19]
Brenton
 Okay,

[01:07:15:19 - 01:07:33:10]
Brenton
 so another part of this passage was there's warnings in here about thieves and robbers. Mm-hmm. And you said, "What we need to really be aware of is that often what presents itself as Christian is really just a wolf in sheep's clothing."

[01:07:33:10 - 01:07:41:08]
Brenton
 Who is Jesus specifically referring to when he says, "All who came before me were thieves and robbers"?

[01:07:41:08 - 01:07:50:18]
Chris
 Mm-hmm. Well, I think this is another place where doing a little Bible study is helpful.

[01:07:50:18 - 01:08:14:11]
Chris
 So a really key passage in regards to the shepherd-sheep relationship is in the Old Testament, this is Ezekiel 34, where the prophet is speaking for the Lord and he's just condemning Israel's shepherds, because the shepherds of Israel, which are the so-called spiritual leaders. And I'll just read a portion of it,

[01:08:14:11 - 01:08:35:17]
Chris
 Ezekiel 34, 7, "Therefore you shepherds hear the word of the Lord, as I live, declares the Lord God, surely you, surely because my sheep have become a prey, and my sheep have become food for all the wild beasts, since there was no shepherd, and because my shepherds have not searched for my sheep, but the shepherds have fed themselves, and have not fed my sheep, therefore you shepherds hear the word of the Lord.

[01:08:35:17 - 01:09:05:13]
Chris
 Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require my sheep at their hand, and put a stop to their feeding the sheep. I will rescue my sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them." Yeah. So, you fast forward that, you know, maybe six, seven, 800 years, and the same thing is still going on. And so Jesus, the spiritual leaders are now known as the Pharisees and the Sadducees, Pharisees primarily,

[01:09:05:13 - 01:09:09:18]
Chris
 in view here, they're doing the same thing.

[01:09:09:18 - 01:09:10:11]
Chris
 Which is, you know,

[01:09:10:11 - 01:09:30:13]
Chris
 in many ways what eventually got Jesus killed is because He was threatening at them, and the sheep were starting to, some of the sheep were starting to follow Jesus and not the shepherds. And so, like, we see with the blind man last week, like, he gets booted out, he's mistreated because he doesn't want to go along with the program.

[01:09:30:13 - 01:09:30:19]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[01:09:30:19 - 01:09:43:18]
Brenton
 Yeah. I think for so long, I've actually, I think, kind of separated John 10 out in my mind as this kind of standalone story, but really, you know, it flows directly out of nine.

[01:09:43:18 - 01:09:59:09]
Brenton
 Jesus is talking to the blind man, but then it says some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and then the conversation starts with the Pharisees immediately at the end of John 9. And so, this is still, like, just a very pointed exchange between Jesus and the Pharisees.

[01:09:59:09 - 01:10:26:09]
Chris
 Which is a great point. This is the danger of just popping down somewhere in the middle of a book of the Bible and just starting and not recognizing. And, you know, chapters of visions are great because they help us to find our place, but here it actually can be a little dangerous. And one of the, can I share a pet peeve about Bible translations or Bibles is the headings.

[01:10:26:09 - 01:10:26:19]
Chris
 Yeah. Right.

[01:10:26:19 - 01:10:27:16]
Chris
 And the word shepherd. Well,

[01:10:27:16 - 01:10:53:09]
Chris
 can I read it and maybe discern that on my own? But it's like, it's a little bit of the dumbing down of Christianity, of discipleship. And if we do read it consecutively, which is what the original readers, you know, like, would have done, maybe they probably caught that sooner than we did or do.

[01:10:53:09 - 01:10:56:20]
Brenton
 It's interesting, I have, I actually have a copy of the Bible,

[01:10:56:20 - 01:11:16:12]
Brenton
 it's the reader's version from Crossway and it has none of this stuff in it. There's no verses, no chapters or anything, which is cool until you want to find out where you're at. Right. Right. So, there is utility to it. Yeah, there is. There is. But yeah, that can easily be distracting to what's actually happening.

[01:11:16:12 - 01:11:19:11]
Chris
 So it's actually talking about the, you know,

[01:11:19:11 - 01:11:31:03]
Chris
 the spiritual leaders of Israel in that day, you know. But for us, the application is, it's spiritual leaders, could be spiritual leaders today.

[01:11:31:03 - 01:11:56:23]
Chris
 And again, this is where verse 1 is so important, "Climb in another way." That man is a thief or a robber. So that doesn't necessarily mean that our spiritual leaders are thieves and robbers, it just means that if they're trying to say that there's another way to salvation, safety, and satisfaction other than Jesus, that's what they in effect are being, doing.

[01:11:56:23 - 01:12:06:01]
Brenton
 Yeah. Yeah, and I guess that's kind of my next question. So in your view, like what are some of the common ways that this presents itself today?

[01:12:06:01 - 01:12:15:13]
Chris
 Well, we've kind of hit on it already a little bit, but you will have spiritual leaders, and that could be pastors,

[01:12:15:13 - 01:12:20:09]
Chris
 or it could be Christian speakers. I think it can be artists, musicians.

[01:12:20:09 - 01:13:16:22]
Chris
 You can take, you know, authors as a, I think as a Christian authors as a big one, or it can just be anybody who espouses something that's false about Jesus and claims to be some type of teacher, have some type of knowledge. And I think it comes out in many ways, we don't have these anymore, but it was always discouraging for me to go to Christian bookstores and to see the titles and the authors and the people that were prominent there. And a lot of them are just espousing stuff that without, if you don't have discerning, you know, ears, eyes, so to speak, it sounds good on the surface. But then when you really look at what they're selling, what they're saying, and it just comes in every form, of course it comes from outside of the church too,

[01:13:16:22 - 01:13:26:14]
Chris
 just the world, our culture has a narrative about what makes the good life, so to speak,

[01:13:26:14 - 01:13:29:16]
Chris
 which I just called the abundant life, the true abundant life.

[01:13:29:16 - 01:13:33:16]
Chris
 And I mentioned that, and I've talked about that a lot. Yeah.

[01:13:33:16 - 01:13:46:05]
Brenton
 Yeah, I think, you know, as you talk about the wolves or whatever, that could be a lot of different people. I think specifically Jesus is talking about people that have authority over another. So like in this situation,

[01:13:46:05 - 01:13:49:12]
Brenton
 you know, what would that relationship have been like with,

[01:13:49:12 - 01:13:57:17]
Brenton
 you know, the Pharisees at that point? What was their responsibility over the common Jewish person as far as shepherding?

[01:13:57:17 - 01:14:02:10]
Chris
 Well, I mean, they essentially controlled the temple and the synagogue,

[01:14:02:10 - 01:14:33:03]
Chris
 places of worship. So locally it would have been the synagogue, you know, in Jerusalem it would be the temple. And so like they cast this blind man out, that means they're like, you're out. You don't get to come and worship here, which was for a Jewish person in that day, and even so for an Orthodox Jew today would be the worst thing possible. Sure. Because it means you are out, literally, like not just literally physically, but spiritually,

[01:14:33:03 - 01:14:33:12]
Chris
 you are out.

[01:14:33:12 - 01:14:34:05]
Chris
 So yeah,

[01:14:34:05 - 01:14:51:08]
Chris
 and you know, they had to come and those days still, they were making sacrifices and things like that. And so you couldn't do that. And so what do you do about confessing sin and all of that?

[01:14:51:08 - 01:14:52:11]
Chris
 So it was a lot.

[01:14:52:11 - 01:15:07:09]
Brenton
 Yeah. So, I guess just an application question out of this. How can we, just as, you know, Christians in our culture, better discern who's a wolf and who's a sheep?

[01:15:07:09 - 01:15:08:03]
Chris
 Yeah.

[01:15:08:03 - 01:15:08:10]
Chris
 Well,

[01:15:08:10 - 01:15:10:18]
Chris
 I want to answer this on two levels.

[01:15:10:18 - 01:15:23:05]
Chris
 One is, again, this is why listening to the voice of our shepherd and knowing the voice of the shepherd and learning to discern that voice.

[01:15:23:05 - 01:15:25:19]
Brenton
 Yeah. What do you mean by learning to discern

[01:15:25:19 - 01:15:34:20]
Chris
 just to dive into the wolf? It really ultimately goes back to being immersed in the scripture. The best way to spot a lie is to know the truth.

[01:15:34:20 - 01:15:48:05]
Chris
 And so I would just, I think I'm pretty plainly saying this on Sunday, but I think a huge problem is just so many Christians do not spend time in the Bible.

[01:15:48:05 - 01:15:50:21]
Chris
 And Bible literacy is,

[01:15:50:21 - 01:16:06:02]
Chris
 I don't want to be one of those guys that says all time low and you know, all that. I bet it was lower 2000 years ago. Yeah, I'm sure it was. Well, it was lower 1000 years ago, let alone 2500 years ago, which is why we ended up with a reformation in part.

[01:16:06:02 - 01:16:28:09]
Chris
 It's still pretty low. And so if you don't know what the truth is, the lies are going to sound really, really good. And we also are inclined to believe the lies because they appeal to our flesh, to our ego, to what we in our sinful nature want. So we've got a double, it's kind of a double edged sword there.

[01:16:28:09 - 01:16:38:03]
Chris
 So I just think the more that we can be in tune to our shepherd's voice and hear and listen to him.

[01:16:38:03 - 01:16:47:13]
Chris
 So again, it's what are people, these teachers, leaders, what are they saying about Jesus and salvation?

[01:16:47:13 - 01:16:54:13]
Chris
 Go back to the door thing. And then the other thing is, is Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, by your fruits, you shall know them.

[01:16:54:13 - 01:17:25:04]
Chris
 And so it's not simply a matter of correct doctrine. We also have to pay attention to the way that they are living. And we're not looking for perfection or anything like this, but this is why Paul says that elders must be men who are above reproach, which doesn't mean perfect, but it just means they're living a life that if everything was known about them, people would still respect and would still follow them.

[01:17:25:04 - 01:17:33:03]
Chris
 And so what we find, and this is actually quite true today, it's another,

[01:17:33:03 - 01:17:50:10]
Chris
 something that makes me a mixture of sad and angry is you have a lot of people who use correct doctrine as a way to bully the sheep and to either build a platform for themselves to become

[01:17:50:10 - 01:18:01:11]
Chris
 wealthy or to exert power or control or influence. And most of these, it's mostly men, there are some women, but mostly men,

[01:18:01:11 - 01:18:07:08]
Chris
 they almost all eventually fall at some point, not always.

[01:18:07:08 - 01:18:17:21]
Chris
 But that's where we also got to look is like how are they treating people? That's what's their character.

[01:18:17:21 - 01:18:45:08]
Chris
 And this is something that the Lord's really had to work on me to help me to discern first in my own life, but then in the people that I look to and respect as maybe somewhat mentors or whatever is, is like they may have the right theology, but like how are they wielding their influence that the Lord has given them?

[01:18:45:08 - 01:18:46:23]
Chris
 And yeah, so. That's fair.

[01:18:46:23 - 01:18:54:20]
Chris
 Right? I mean, like we can have a long conversation about that. I got names in my bag. Well, yeah, we don't need to have many names, but it's, and again,

[01:18:54:20 - 01:19:02:00]
Chris
 I want to be careful here because it's no one,

[01:19:02:00 - 01:19:08:16]
Chris
 there's no perfect under shepherds. For sure. And at least of all mean.

[01:19:08:16 - 01:19:25:01]
Brenton
 So speaking of spiritual shepherding, what's the role of the church in this? I mean, we see part of the elders responsibility in a local church is to guard the flock. So how does that happen even here at Harmony?

[01:19:25:01 - 01:19:26:09]
Chris
 Yeah. Well,

[01:19:26:09 - 01:19:28:10]
Chris
 and we may get to this this Sunday.

[01:19:28:10 - 01:19:39:01]
Chris
 This is one, another one. You probably, I need to say another because you would, you would point that out probably, but there's another one of these passages that there's so much that we could possibly talk about. 1 Peter 5, Peter will say,

[01:19:39:01 - 01:19:46:20]
Chris
 basically he calls the elders as under shepherds. Like there's the chief, he literally uses the term chief shepherd, obviously Jesus.

[01:19:46:20 - 01:20:01:01]
Chris
 And Jesus though has assigned under shepherds to oversee. That's another word term, biblical term for elder, pastor. All of those terms apply to the same office, same men.

[01:20:01:01 - 01:20:36:00]
Chris
 And so they are responsible to care for the flock. So I would say that one of the ways that Jesus cares for us is by giving us under shepherds who will be the physical presence in our lives to shepherd us. So there's a variety of ways that this happens. It happens every Sunday through our corporate worship services, through preaching. That's, in fact, Paul tells Timothy in pastoral epistles that the primary job of pastors preach, teach the word.

[01:20:36:00 - 01:20:45:07]
Chris
 But there's also individual shepherding and all of our elders do this on a regular basis, involved with in people's lives and helping them to navigate situations.

[01:20:45:07 - 01:21:12:19]
Chris
 We just pray. So last night we had an elder meeting and we have a couple of dozen elders and we had in assistant pastors and we spent three hours here last night. And a good portion of that was like we were praying for the flock and for individual people. And we also deal with matters at church restoration and we were dealing with those last night and we had a sheep that's,

[01:21:12:19 - 01:21:23:06]
Chris
 this happens on unfortunately on a regular basis. The sheep starts wandering and we're like, okay, how are we going to try to bring that sheep back into the flock, so to speak?

[01:21:23:06 - 01:21:27:09]
Chris
 And we're not bringing them back to us. We're hopefully helping them to,

[01:21:27:09 - 01:21:30:01]
Chris
 that pair with the lost sheep go after the lost sheep.

[01:21:30:01 - 01:21:38:12]
Chris
 Well, the way that Jesus intends to do that in most cases today is through people, like what were the means.

[01:21:38:12 - 01:21:46:12]
Chris
 So most of our elders leading either a D group or a community group or both with their wives,

[01:21:46:12 - 01:21:50:14]
Chris
 there's a whole variety of ways. I will say this is important for you.

[01:21:50:14 - 01:22:06:15]
Chris
 Our elders are, we have campus elders. So each of our campuses has a team of elders and they meet every month and in particular to talk about how are the sheep and the members of our church specifically doing,

[01:22:06:15 - 01:22:10:21]
Chris
 how can we be praying for them? Is there anything that kind of needs our attention?

[01:22:10:21 - 01:22:14:08]
Brenton
 Yeah. A little plug for membership here. All right. Yeah.

[01:22:14:08 - 01:22:20:13]
Brenton
 You made the point that Jesus doesn't say he is a door, but he says he is the door.

[01:22:20:13 - 01:22:24:21]
Brenton
 We've talked quite a bit on this show about the exclusivity of Christian claims.

[01:22:24:21 - 01:22:34:03]
Brenton
 I am curious, I'm like genuinely curious here on your thoughts about, you know, the flip side. So our culture's obsession with inclusion.

[01:22:34:03 - 01:22:41:16]
Brenton
 You mentioned in the sermon that inclusivity is one of the chief values of our day. So without getting into the weeds of DEI, please,

[01:22:41:16 - 01:22:46:15]
Brenton
 is this emphasis on inclusion a relatively new phenomenon?

[01:22:46:15 - 01:22:59:23]
Chris
 I'm not sure that you're really being honest with you not wanting to get into the weeds of DEI. I am 100% honest right now. Yeah. I think I don't want to either. Get Charlie Kirk in here for it.

[01:22:59:23 - 01:23:17:21]
Chris
 I think our culture's obsession with it is largely our American ideal of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness running amok. Okay.

[01:23:17:21 - 01:23:29:08]
Chris
 If you take it to its obvious end without any correct understanding of what our founders actually meant by that,

[01:23:29:08 - 01:23:41:16]
Chris
 just take it in isolation as a statement and an ideal, then this is what you get. Inclusion because then that lets me do whatever I want to do, and that's freedom.

[01:23:41:16 - 01:23:44:14]
Chris
 That's part of my answer. Yeah.

[01:23:44:14 - 01:23:59:22]
Chris
 I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That's not what I'm saying. But today that's an exclusion of anything else, and I believe our founders meant it

[01:23:59:22 - 01:24:09:23]
Chris
 to be in bounds with like, we have this not only for our own good, but for the good and the sake of others and the flourishing and prospering of our nation.

[01:24:09:23 - 01:24:20:08]
Brenton
 Well, and also, specifically, that's in the eyes of the state, right? The state isn't going to impede on that. But that does certainly have implications under the culture as a whole.

[01:24:20:08 - 01:24:21:10]
Chris
 Yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:21:10 - 01:24:47:07]
Chris
 There's a lot, again. Yeah. We could go here. But I do think the part of the obsession with inclusion is if everybody's viewpoint only lifestyle claim to whatever it is, to eternal life, salvation, heaven, what is to be included, that means mine gets to be included, which means nobody can tell me that I'm wrong. Yeah.

[01:24:47:07 - 01:24:53:19]
Chris
 And so, it's this free, it's tied in, I think, to this freedom of self-fulfillment, freedom of expression,

[01:24:53:19 - 01:24:56:19]
Chris
 freedom to choose my own pathway, identity.

[01:24:56:19 - 01:25:11:13]
Chris
 So I think it's relatively new in the scope of where we are at today, from what my understanding of history is.

[01:25:11:13 - 01:25:41:05]
Brenton
 Yeah. Well, yeah, I think, I guess my next question was how were ideas like inclusion, exclusivity viewed before the postmodern era? So maybe your generation, maybe past your generation was more kind of in the modern era, right, where they would have viewed things very differently in these ways as far as like...

[01:25:41:05 - 01:25:48:00]
Brenton
 I think they were far more okay with exclusive claims than we are today.

[01:25:48:00 - 01:26:02:08]
Chris
 I think for the most part, and externally, outwardly, I think the seeds of where we were at today was still... I guess it just spring out of nowhere.

[01:26:02:08 - 01:26:12:18]
Chris
 Part of this is tied into our modern scientific view and how we became so secular.

[01:26:12:18 - 01:26:18:10]
Chris
 If you tie in roughly in the last 300 years,

[01:26:18:10 - 01:26:37:15]
Chris
 science has changed to the place where the only thing that can be true is what can be proven by empirical testable theories and experiments and all those kind of things.

[01:26:37:15 - 01:27:01:21]
Chris
 With that mentality, then you naturally leave no room for faith. It's only what we can see and observe. Anything in the theory. And then you also have this rise of secularism at the same time, which is there's no place in the public square for religion.

[01:27:01:21 - 01:27:13:03]
Chris
 Sure. You can have it privately, but not publicly. And so you take those two things together and that's where we are at today.

[01:27:13:03 - 01:27:16:12]
Chris
 It's an ugly two-headed monster. Postmodernism actually...

[01:27:16:12 - 01:27:19:02]
Chris
 You may be surprised, I'm gonna say this, it's actually helpful in some ways.

[01:27:19:02 - 01:27:20:15]
Brenton
 Okay, explain.

[01:27:20:15 - 01:27:26:20]
Chris
 Well, because it is undermining this modern scientific idea that...

[01:27:26:20 - 01:27:37:10]
Chris
 Modern scientific theory or modern psychology, modern science, all of those things make very

[01:27:37:10 - 01:27:38:14]
Chris
 bold truth claims.

[01:27:38:14 - 01:27:42:02]
Chris
 And so postmodernism is somewhat undermining that because they're like, there is no...

[01:27:42:02 - 01:27:42:07]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[01:27:42:07 - 01:27:54:13]
Chris
 Nobody can know truth. So I'm not an advocate for postmodernism. I'm just saying it's not been all bad because it's actually deconstructing, as there's another word,

[01:27:54:13 - 01:28:03:04]
Chris
 deconstructing this secularism and modern view of science that has held sway for several hundred years,

[01:28:03:04 - 01:28:15:16]
Chris
 which creates actually a space for us to come back in where there may be more room now for us to talk about things that can't necessarily be proved scientifically.

[01:28:15:16 - 01:28:25:00]
Chris
 And for us to say maybe there is a place at the table for religious discussion.

[01:28:25:00 - 01:28:33:00]
Brenton
 I think we're seeing that. I think we're seeing it in maybe a different way because it's still kind of coming through that lens of...

[01:28:33:00 - 01:28:37:06]
Brenton
 Science is king right now, right? That is the culture that...

[01:28:37:06 - 01:28:42:17]
Chris
 But less so than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago.

[01:28:42:17 - 01:28:42:22]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[01:28:42:22 - 01:28:43:03]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[01:28:43:03 - 01:28:56:17]
Chris
 No. I mean, let's just not... This is another political thing that you and I aren't taking sides on this, but there's been a big pushback about during COVID.

[01:28:56:17 - 01:28:59:07]
Chris
 And part of that is we don't want people telling us what to do.

[01:28:59:07 - 01:29:06:06]
Chris
 But part of it is also is there's less trust in science today, in 2025, than there was in 2019. That's definitely true.

[01:29:06:06 - 01:29:18:21]
Brenton
 Yeah. Or at least the expert class. I think that that was the big push of like, we don't want to trust experts anymore. And so yeah, that definitely has implications on the science community as well.

[01:29:18:21 - 01:29:27:07]
Chris
 Yeah. So as probably some of our listeners are probably going, "I have no idea what you guys are talking about. How do we get here?" It's actually relatively important, but...

[01:29:27:07 - 01:29:34:23]
Brenton
 Yeah. Well, okay. So maybe another question. Looking back when the gospels were written,

[01:29:34:23 - 01:29:43:15]
Brenton
 right, they wouldn't have had any issues in that culture with exclusive claims, right? That was just normal everyday stuff for them. And so...

[01:29:43:15 - 01:29:47:05]
Chris
 In Judaism,

[01:29:47:05 - 01:29:48:19]
Chris
 but not in the Greek world.

[01:29:48:19 - 01:29:49:03]
Brenton
 Okay.

[01:29:49:03 - 01:29:51:07]
Chris
 That's fair. Not in paganism.

[01:29:51:07 - 01:29:59:16]
Chris
 Not in Rome, right? Okay. I mean, the only... And maybe I'm thinking more in the religious... Like yeah,

[01:29:59:16 - 01:29:59:21]
Chris
 Rome,

[01:29:59:21 - 01:30:10:19]
Chris
 Roman Empire, Caesar. Yeah, you can believe in all of these other gods as long as I'm the ultimate God and none of them steps on my territory, right?

[01:30:10:19 - 01:30:30:00]
Chris
 So Christianity didn't necessarily get in trouble with the Roman Empire until it started saying it's not Caesar as king, Jesus as king. That was the... As long as they were like, yeah, they were originally viewed as another sect of Judaism, okay, whatever. And the Jews believe what they believe, that's fine.

[01:30:30:00 - 01:30:40:03]
Brenton
 Which yeah, I mean, would be when it impedes on the state's power is when they start taking notice of it. Right. All right, we should move on.

[01:30:40:03 - 01:30:42:14]
Chris
 Did you get your question answered?

[01:30:42:14 - 01:30:52:04]
Chris
 I think it definitely was in the Jewish world for sure. The people that Jesus is talking to in John 10, yeah, they were very comfortable with exclusive claims.

[01:30:52:04 - 01:30:56:13]
Brenton
 Yeah, okay. All right, we'll move on to the last one. That was fun.

[01:30:56:13 - 01:30:59:09]
Brenton
 You ended up... You ended by saying that we were...

[01:30:59:09 - 01:31:09:23]
Brenton
 We experienced the abundant life by listening to and following Jesus. And you followed that up by saying that Jesus is speaking to us through the Spirit and His Word.

[01:31:09:23 - 01:31:16:00]
Brenton
 And I think this question gets back to Hebrews 4 that the Word of God is living and active.

[01:31:16:00 - 01:31:20:07]
Brenton
 How is reading Scripture different from reading any other book?

[01:31:20:07 - 01:31:33:17]
Chris
 Well, Scripture is first of all inspired by the Holy Spirit. So we can find that in Timothy 3, 16, and 17.

[01:31:33:17 - 01:31:57:18]
Chris
 Scripture talks about that as well about the prophets were carried along by the Spirit. They didn't come... The Bible didn't come to us of any man's own words or own thoughts in the sense of the truth underlying the words. But they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

[01:31:57:18 - 01:32:17:12]
Chris
 So it's living and active that's inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it's also the word of Christ. It's God's Word. And so God's Word naturally, as we see it the very first verse of the Bible, has supernatural power in it to create, to bring life.

[01:32:17:12 - 01:32:24:12]
Chris
 So it's just a different word than any other word.

[01:32:24:12 - 01:32:24:20]
Chris
 Yeah.

[01:32:24:20 - 01:32:39:08]
Brenton
 Yeah, so I guess, can you just kind of expand on what it means on our end? So you kind of talked about it from the authorship point of view, but on our end, what does it mean that the Scripture is living and active?

[01:32:39:08 - 01:32:45:13]
Chris
 Well, that passage in Hebrews 4 says it cuts essentially straight to the heart. So it says it's a sword.

[01:32:45:13 - 01:32:50:19]
Chris
 And so it cuts right to the heart, which means it brings conviction.

[01:32:50:19 - 01:33:02:14]
Chris
 It doesn't just speak to our head. It speaks to the very depths of who we are. And in many different ways, it tells us who we truly are,

[01:33:02:14 - 01:33:18:12]
Chris
 tells us our true nature, tells us about sin, tells us about salvation, tells us about God. And it is in the light of Scripture that every other truth can truly and rightly be understood. So there's truth outside of Scripture.

[01:33:18:12 - 01:33:21:04]
Chris
 God's revealed truth in nature, Psalm 19,

[01:33:21:04 - 01:33:21:23]
Chris
 Romans 1.

[01:33:21:23 - 01:33:35:13]
Chris
 But the only way that that truth can truly be understood in the right light is as we understand it in light of God's revealed Word.

[01:33:35:13 - 01:33:38:09]
Chris
 There's general revelation, specific revelation we can get into.

[01:33:38:09 - 01:34:07:20]
Brenton
 Yeah. You had made the comment toward the end of your sermon that from the congregation's perspective, somebody saying, you know, it'd be a lot easier if I could just hear from Jesus, right? And your point is that you are, like we have His Word. What would you say to someone or how would you help someone that just is reading Scripture but doing it in a very dry way where it just kind of reads as another book to them?

[01:34:07:20 - 01:34:09:14]
Chris
 Yeah, this is a great question.

[01:34:09:14 - 01:34:29:05]
Chris
 I hope actually to address this, actually not specifically, but to address the things that I think prevent people from truly desiring to read the Word and actually getting something from it.

[01:34:29:05 - 01:34:44:04]
Chris
 So maybe I'll leave most of that to this next week. I do know that a lot of people say I try to read it, I don't understand it, and I don't get anything out of it, fall asleep, or you know,

[01:34:44:04 - 01:34:46:07]
Chris
 and that's real.

[01:34:46:07 - 01:34:50:14]
Chris
 I want to acknowledge that.

[01:34:50:14 - 01:35:08:06]
Chris
 And so we'll talk about that more, a little bit more, this Sunday. So, but partly I think it's about loving the author of Scripture more than loving Scripture in and of itself.

[01:35:08:06 - 01:35:12:11]
Chris
 I do think that that's where sometimes it's like, yeah, I mean, I love the Bible.

[01:35:12:11 - 01:35:24:22]
Chris
 I mean, I really, really, really do. One of the things I've been convicted of lately is do I love the Bible more than I love the one who's actually written? Is that where my passion is?

[01:35:24:22 - 01:35:42:00]
Chris
 that's where the things we're going to talk about, he's the good shepherd. What we're going to talk about Sunday is how is he like, how is he the good shepherd? Because I don't believe that many of us actually believe that he is good.

[01:35:42:00 - 01:35:43:02]
Chris
 We'll acknowledge it,

[01:35:43:02 - 01:35:49:00]
Chris
 but do we really believe that he's good? How is he good to me?

[01:35:49:00 - 01:35:52:13]
Brenton
 Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll end it there.

[01:35:52:13 - 01:35:55:21]
Chris
 That's a non-answer answer. We can talk about it next week.

[01:35:55:21 - 01:35:56:17]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[01:35:56:17 - 01:36:00:10]
Brenton
 All right. Well, we'll end it, but thanks for that.

[01:36:00:10 - 01:36:04:21]
Brenton
 If you have any questions, ask it for the podcast.com and we'll talk to you next week.

[01:36:04:21 - 01:36:05:11]
Chris
 Thanks everybody.