Brenton
 Welcome back to Further. I am Brenton Grimm.

[00:00:52:21 - 00:01:02:15]
Brenton
 We got a new guy here today. I'm excited about it. Tony Esslinger. How's it going? Hey. Doing great. Good. And then we got Nate Todd. He's an old hand here now.

[00:01:02:15 - 00:01:03:18]
Nate Todd
 Hello, Brenton.

[00:01:03:18 - 00:01:05:21]
Brenton
 How are you? Doing well. Welcome, guys.

[00:01:05:21 - 00:01:07:01]
Nate Todd
 Yeah, thanks for having us.

[00:01:07:01 - 00:01:09:16]
Brenton
 Yeah. So both of you guys preached this week. We're in John 11.

[00:01:12:09 - 00:01:23:06]
Brenton
 Again, how I always like to start out these episodes when we have people other than Chris Carr in here is, as you both prepped for this sermon, what was the main thing that you took away from it?

[00:01:25:06 - 00:01:53:05]
Nate Todd
 I would say that the focus was on Jesus. And obviously, that needs to be the focus on everything that we read in scripture. And as we study God's word, that needs to be the focus. But it was just really nice and refreshing as I was diving in and studying. And it was just like, oh, Jesus is the main point of this. And He needs to be the central focus as He is in our everyday lives. And obviously, as we study God's word, like I said.

[00:01:55:04 - 00:02:21:22]
Tony Esslinger
 Yeah, I would agree with that and echo that. And I think also just the reality that I was just struck by there's other people in the story. So yes, Jesus is the focus. But often, I think I get hit with those same questions. I know He's a resurrection. And that's what I look forward to and look to. But realizing He had more for us in this, and that's the questions that He's asking Martha. So it allowed me to really get in the story with Him and think through how would I respond with those same questions that she's asked.

[00:02:21:22 - 00:02:29:19]
Brenton
 Yeah, that's good. Well, I'm kind of in line with that. You had mentioned something that you had heard from another pastor recently.

[00:02:31:11 - 00:02:45:04]
Brenton
 The pastor had said, "Sometimes we can get so caught up in the comfort of the grace and mercy of the narratives that we find in the Gospels that we miss what was really going on." What did you mean by that? Or what did He mean by that?

[00:02:45:04 - 00:03:40:04]
Tony Esslinger
 Yeah, I think we love the Gospels, right? The Gospels, we love the story. We love-- we grew up with them. And I think it's just a reality. Often, we take those stories and we apply them directly to ourselves. So yes, Jesus is a resurrection for me. And then like Nate said, the story is about Jesus. And so we flip that around. So what happens is we look forward for the security and the grace and the mercy that Jesus is going to show on me as a believer. And we forget, or at least I forget-- and I think that's the guy who said this-- that we often forget as a church that these are real people with a real situation. As I said on Sunday, they don't know the whole story. So it's if we can realize they're playing it out as they go, they're learning as they go, but yet the writers were inspired to write about their emotions and how they were feeling. So it just takes us to a place that we can realize it's not actually about us. It's about Christ, like Nate said, but also that there's players in here that are more than just a name on a piece of paper.

[00:03:40:04 - 00:04:25:19]
Brenton
 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the saying that the Bible was written for us, not to us. And so it was written to a specific audience of people living in this time. And we need to do our best to kind of get back to how they would have heard it. And these people that are being talked about in the Gospels are living through really hard things. And so, yeah, it's important for us to take that into account as we read it. How can we make sure that when we're reading the Gospel accounts that we're actually taking into account what the people were actually experiencing? Like, how can we read scripture in that way?

[00:04:25:19 - 00:04:40:21]
Tony Esslinger
 Yeah, I think it's-- I made a comment, I believe, on Sunday. If a memory serves me at this point. But it was we need to have a slowed down spirit. We need to have open eyes. So read things as we read the Gospel accounts, especially the ones that we're really familiar with.

[00:04:42:02 - 00:05:07:23]
Tony Esslinger
 Slow down. Ask the Holy Spirit to just give you insight, and perhaps in a way that we haven't seen it before. So when we slow down, that each word does matter. If we believe it's the inspired word of God, every word matters. Every person listed matters. And we can fly by like, oh, yeah, that's not Marian. That's that, Martha, and Lazarus arises. He comes back. He gets resurrected. We know that. And we miss that. There's a lot. There's a lot between his going into that grave and him coming out.

[00:05:09:04 - 00:05:28:01]
Tony Esslinger
 And a lot of it didn't have to do with Lazarus. That wasn't the focus. But we make the end the focus. And so we can really think through and realize, what would God have for me? But instead of just staying there, it'd be like, what would He have for me, and how I'm supposed to see Christ, and I'm not supposed to live out my life, so I can see more clearly.

[00:05:28:01 - 00:05:48:05]
Brenton
 Yeah. Yeah, that is interesting. We do know the end of the story. And so we read all of the stuff back into how the end happens. And so trying to kind of put ourselves in that position or actually understand that they had no idea how that was going to end, although Martha had faith in Jesus.

[00:05:50:15 - 00:05:54:14]
Brenton
 Yeah, so Nate, you pointed out that Martha was hoping in an event

[00:05:56:14 - 00:06:09:18]
Brenton
 in this case, it was the resurrection. But Jesus kind of redirects her to Himself. So in what ways do we tend to hope in certain outcomes rather than in Christ Himself today?

[00:06:09:18 - 00:06:23:09]
Nate Todd
 Yeah, so I think kind of going back to what you guys were just talking about, we know how the story ends, but we don't know how the next three hours are going to play out. And so a lot of times we can get so wrapped up in our current circumstances

[00:06:24:12 - 00:07:23:23]
Nate Todd
 to looking for the end of it. Like if only I can get through this time in my life, if only I can get through this hard thing that is happening. And so that's an example here of how we're looking for an outcome instead of just resting in Jesus and trusting Him that He's allowing this thing to go on in our life for a reason. And it's so that we can be more and more like Him. And so if only I can get through the circumstances, if only I can get this over with, if only I can get to heaven. I think some people have that kind of outlook too of like, "Oh, I can't wait for glory. It's going to be so much better." And it's like, well, the Lord hasn't taken you yet. And so since the Lord hasn't taken you yet, He has a purpose and a plan for what you're currently going through. And so since He has that plan, since He has that purpose, trust Him in that. And then what our responsibility is, is to seek Him and to be obedient to what He says

[00:07:25:00 - 00:07:27:16]
Nate Todd
 we should be doing and how should we should be living our life

[00:07:28:16 - 00:07:39:16]
Nate Todd
 in spite of these circumstances, or even in these circumstances, not necessarily in spite of Him, but how do we embrace Christ through these circumstances and realize that He has a plan for our good and for His glory?

[00:07:40:18 - 00:08:01:21]
Brenton
 Yeah. Well, maybe this question can go to both of you guys, but how can we grow in actually trusting Jesus Himself? Like, you know, you had mentioned that we know the end of this story, but we don't know what's going to happen three hours from now. So how can we practically actually grow in our trust of Jesus?

[00:08:03:07 - 00:09:21:18]
Nate Todd
 Well, I think it's two things. It's remember. And so we have our own stories of His faithfulness in our lives. But we also have the Bible that's full of examples of His faithfulness, His love, His grace, His mercy, and how He's poured that out. And so all these reasons why we can trust Him based off of our experiences and what God's Word has shown us of who He is. So remember and then relationship. And so really, how do we grow in trusting Christ? It's a relationship with Him. It is when we're going through the hard things or when we're going through the good things, we turn to Him and we spend time with Him. And just like I talked a little bit about how, you know, it was our anniversary recently, Janessa and I, and how do we develop this relationship while we pursue each other? And as we pursue each other, as we spend time together, our trust grows. And my trust in her grows, my trust in her, it grows. And then her trust in me, it grows as we spend time together in relationship. And it's no different than with Jesus. As we know Him, as we spend time with Him, we know that He is somebody that we can trust. And yeah, so we do that in a relationship.

[00:09:23:07 - 00:10:49:20]
Tony Esslinger
 Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's two. Do we realize that Jesus desires to have an intimate personal relationship with us? I think that's something I hit on on Sunday was just that He made Mary and Martha, obviously very different, right? They grew up in the same household. They grew up with the same, allegedly the same group of friends. They had the same brother. And so they were going through the same experience, but we see, we're gonna see next week also, they still respond differently. And I think it's really important to know that Jesus knows that. And He made, we were made in His image. We're made in the image of God to have characteristics, to have emotion. And we're not gonna reflect that perfectly, obviously, because we're marred and broken by sin. But in Christ, when we know that we are intimately made, intimately made to reflect Him, then that becomes a real thing. And so like Nate said, when we remember, when I remember that I was so loved by God that He chose me to redeem me in spite of my sin in my rebellion, when I'm feeling separated, when I'm going through hard stuff, I can stop back and remember if He was with me then, if He chose me then, then I can live for Him now. And even when I don't understand it, we get really caught up and we really wanna understand our circumstances now. And part of that's, we have to know that we know the one who holds our future. We may not get it, but we can trust in Him. And in that trust, we can believe that if He's a resurrection and I'm in the resurrection, then I can trust in Him.

[00:10:49:20 - 00:10:50:07]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:10:51:12 - 00:11:38:05]
Brenton
 Yeah, I think another thing that strikes me about this story as we're having this conversation is that Jesus didn't have to heal Lazarus in this situation. He didn't have to resurrect Him. And so, as we think through the things that have been hard in our lives or that will be in the future, like our trust shouldn't be conditional on whether Jesus does things that we think He should do. So again, we know that this story ends with a resurrected Lazarus, but that's not always the case. And we, even through those really hard things, need to still trust. And so, yeah, and that's a hard thing to actually do, right? In the middle of tragedy.

[00:11:39:17 - 00:11:46:05]
Brenton
 But that's something that, as you guys talked about, comes from a deepening relationship with Jesus Himself.

[00:11:46:05 - 00:11:53:07]
Tony Esslinger
 How have we grown? I think in my own life, I've always grown right in those hard moments. I think I was sharing,

[00:11:54:12 - 00:12:04:08]
Tony Esslinger
 are we married to the first person we ever dated? Do we have the same job that we always had? Most of us know, some of us possibly, but we still know there's a whole lot going on in our lives.

[00:12:06:01 - 00:12:33:08]
Tony Esslinger
 Someone just asked me the other day, I'm like, "Oh, how'd you and your wife meet?" Well, I gave them the 10 second, right? And we met at church and got married within a year. And it was wonderful. There's a lot of hard stuff that happened in between there, but all of that grew us and conformed us in the image of Christ and made us stronger in our faith. And so we all have those stories. We all have those situations. We all have Mary and Martha moments that in the end, that we love Jesus more and we understand it more.

[00:12:33:08 - 00:12:58:06]
Nate Todd
 Yeah, and just like Jesus takes the focus off the event to come and tells Martha to put the focus on Him, that's what we should do too, is like I said, at the beginning of this, we don't know what the next three hours are gonna bring, but if we know that we can trust in Jesus and our focus is on Him, it doesn't matter what the next three hours are gonna bring because we know that He's in control and that we know that He is someone that can be trusted.

[00:12:58:06 - 00:12:59:07]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:13:01:07 - 00:13:07:06]
Brenton
 Tony, you made the point that when Martha came to Jesus, that she didn't hide her pain.

[00:13:08:10 - 00:13:17:00]
Brenton
 You applied that to us and the way a lot of us approach God, we often try to clean ourselves up before we feel worthy enough to bring anything to Him.

[00:13:18:01 - 00:13:24:02]
Brenton
 Why do you think that so many of us hesitate to approach God like we see from Martha here?

[00:13:25:10 - 00:13:38:21]
Tony Esslinger
 I think a lot of it's trust, right? Do I trust God? And that sounds crazy. We're like, oh yeah, we believe in Him, He died for us. But that's one thing to say, but it's another thing to believe that. And I think a lot of us,

[00:13:41:06 - 00:14:07:17]
Tony Esslinger
 we respond based on how we know things in our lives, how did we interact with our parents? How do we interact with our friends or our spouses or our children? And then we see, we have moments in our lives when we didn't go so well. Hard things, I brought hard things up or someone brought something to me and we didn't respond with grace and mercy. We're met with perhaps hardship or broken relationships. And so I think we get scared. And so as people in our natural state here,

[00:14:09:06 - 00:14:26:12]
Tony Esslinger
 if we're not focused on Christ, especially, we start to think, well, God must be like this broken relationship. This must be what I'm used to. And so it's so important that we renew our mind and we refocus on not letting the pain that we have blind us to who Christ can be or is.

[00:14:28:00 - 00:14:45:19]
Brenton
 Yeah, so a lot of your work here at the church is as a counselor, right? So how have you seen people experience change when they come to Jesus as they are? Like how does that change their interaction with God?

[00:14:47:07 - 00:15:42:02]
Tony Esslinger
 Yeah, I've been blessed to sit with a lot of people who honestly, they just sit down and they stare at me and they don't know where to start because we're so used to thinking we gotta know what we're supposed to be doing. Well, if you're gonna be a believer, that means you need to have this memorized. And I mean, they'll kind of come in and start doing a John 3 16 thing. And like, you can tell what they've been working. And well, I don't, or you hear a lot of, well, I don't know how to pray. So will you pray for me? And honestly, I'm like, no, I'd love to hear you praying. I don't know how to do that. And so sometimes if we've been raised in church, that sounds weird, but for a lot of people in the world that we're in, that's not a reality for them. And so the ability for them to come to know they can talk to the Lord, talk to God as they would talk to, like we're talking to each other right now and know that they're heard, that they can bear their hearts.

[00:15:45:09 - 00:15:57:13]
Tony Esslinger
 I've listened, had the privilege of being able to sit with men especially who have said, taken a deep breath and be like, I've never said this before, or all right, I'm gonna do this. And you're like, who are you talking to? Oh,

[00:15:58:18 - 00:16:03:10]
Tony Esslinger
 they've never done it before. They've never confessed before. They've never shared their heart with the Lord before.

[00:16:04:16 - 00:16:21:14]
Tony Esslinger
 And I'm like, you don't need me around to do this, but they're like, no, I want to do this because I want to know how to seek the Lord. And so what I see, and when I see that happen, then you get to see that brokenness of that humility and the heart where you just get to watch the Lord, as we say, open the eyes, drop the scales,

[00:16:22:21 - 00:16:26:05]
Tony Esslinger
 or even if they've had a profession of faith, but they've never been able to live in it.

[00:16:27:05 - 00:16:38:10]
Tony Esslinger
 It's one of the most blessed things I've experienced. It's just honor. It's such a blessing to sit beside people when they have that first connection and they can see that they can approach the Lord

[00:16:39:14 - 00:16:49:14]
Tony Esslinger
 like you would approach your father or your mother or someone that you love deeply. And know that they're only gonna stay there for you and love you, because that's just in the world and the brokenness.

[00:16:51:11 - 00:17:02:18]
Tony Esslinger
 Many of us are very blessed and many people have more hardship than we can ever imagine. And to know that they have a father in heaven who loves them and wants to know, hear from them, is just a huge blessing.

[00:17:04:19 - 00:17:25:12]
Brenton
 I would guess that you talk a lot about like newer Christians experiencing that, but I would say that that's probably not unique to newer Christians either. I'd say that someone could be in the church most of their lives and still have this idea that,

[00:17:26:14 - 00:17:31:19]
Brenton
 I can't truly be open with my prayers or with God.

[00:17:33:06 - 00:17:43:02]
Brenton
 How would you encourage someone in either of those situations that might be listening to this to do that? Nate, feel free to jump in here too.

[00:17:44:21 - 00:18:39:01]
Tony Esslinger
 Yeah, absolutely first of all. I think we absolutely as, if we've been in raising the church or even being a believer for decades and decades, we still get caught up in how we do things. I still have to remind myself, why am I reading my Bible today and why am I praying and why am I going to church? And we do check boxes really, really quickly. And it's just, and we still, that's one thing because we noticed that with our kids. They do really good for a while and then all of a sudden they fall off and we're like, oh no, you gotta go do this. Well, why dad? Because you follow Jesus, right? And it's just that reminder of like, we have to teach because we love Him and we know that we're loved by Him. We want to honor Him and show Him that. And it's not a workspace thing. It's because it's His great love for us. And so my encouragement or I've seen the most growth is I've sat with,

[00:18:40:04 - 00:19:06:00]
Tony Esslinger
 I know I keep saying that, but I just sit with so many people are like, I've never talked about this with anybody before. I've never read that this way or I've never considered that viewpoint. I've only read the Bible by myself or I've never had an accountability guy or a gal or someone that I could actually talk through life with before about the hard questions or I'm really embarrassed that God doesn't care about that. Well, it's in His word, so He does.

[00:19:07:03 - 00:19:24:19]
Tony Esslinger
 And so just, I've seen the most freedom from regardless of how long we've been in the body of Christ from just people stepping back and just to let the weight off and just approach the throne. A lot of times what that looks like is talking to another brother or another sister, it doesn't have to be a counselor, but someone that you trust

[00:19:26:10 - 00:19:34:10]
Tony Esslinger
 and I've watched it just transform. And then, hey, what are you reading the word? Hey, what is your prayer life like? How are you loving your husband? How are you loving your wife, your kids, your friends?

[00:19:36:03 - 00:19:41:22]
Tony Esslinger
 Haven't seen you at church for a while. So what's with that? Oh, this happened or this situation. And we get to, instead of running and hiding,

[00:19:43:03 - 00:19:49:16]
Tony Esslinger
 we can approach the throne together as one. And I believe that's what the body of Christ is about and that's what we're here for.

[00:19:49:16 - 00:20:05:08]
Brenton
 Yeah, well, and there's probably two different layers there too. I mean, it's maybe one thing to confess something that you're struggling with or whatever being real with God, but it's also another thing to do that with another person, right?

[00:20:06:08 - 00:20:11:06]
Brenton
 So, does one of those usually happen first? Like,

[00:20:12:08 - 00:20:14:22]
Brenton
 how does that typically happen or how should it happen?

[00:20:14:22 - 00:20:56:11]
Tony Esslinger
 Yeah, I mean, I always say, take it to Jesus. The first thing, James tells us, confess your faults one to another so you can be healed. We know that we're not the healer. Like the whole point of that is that Jesus is the ultimate healer, but our hearts, we all know this. We go back to the kids' illustration. If we, they can say one thing, "No, I said I was sorry, dad." Did you really, right? We want to hear it because it gives us freedom. For myself personally, I struggled with many things in my life as a believer and wondering what was right, but until I sat down with a bunch of other guys and we started just talking and we started confessing and we started walking with each other, checking in, "Hey, how are you in the Word? How are you thinking about, how are your thoughts? How are you, how is work going? How are you honoring your boss?

[00:20:57:12 - 00:21:42:19]
Tony Esslinger
 And how are you doing your college work?" And all of a sudden it was like, "Oh, all that's for the glory of God." And so that was just a huge thing. So, to the Lord first, but often, I know personally that if I'm having a struggle with something, absolutely I give it to the Lord and I pray through it, but I often, most of the time, still feel a prompting of the Holy Spirit. Like, "You need to talk to your guy about this, or talk to my wife about this, or really think through, because I need to hear from someone else's, "Hey, am I on track?" Like, that's, we test ourselves, right, to see if we're in the faith. So, is that biblical? Is that accurate? And also, you just feel a whole heck of a lot better than getting in. So, there's just something to be said for like, expressing that. When I got saved, I did a really hefty confession

[00:21:43:22 - 00:22:05:02]
Tony Esslinger
 to my pastor at the time. And I know that it didn't need to be that way. Like, I didn't need to wait for that moment in my life, but I still remember that, with that weight being lifted. And so, I just know like, that's what I encourage. As brothers and sisters, like, don't let that weight pile up. Like, just give it to the Lord. And if you need someone to walk with, that's what we're here for. We love it.

[00:22:05:02 - 00:22:06:08]
Nate Todd
 Yeah, having,

[00:22:07:09 - 00:22:24:12]
Nate Todd
 being honest about what you're feeling, because I think a lot of times, we're just even embarrassed to even say what we're feeling, because we feel like we're dishonoring God with it. And sometimes we are dishonoring God with our, the way that we're feeling, with the way that we're thinking. And so, but just being vulnerable

[00:22:25:21 - 00:23:04:09]
Nate Todd
 and saying it out loud to a trusted brother or sister. And when I mean a trusted brother and sister, the important part of that is, they are gonna point you to biblical truth. And so, you get that out in the open, you bring it out into light, and then you have this brother and sister who is going to point you to what God's word has to say about that. And so, I think that that's two vital components of this are, yes, having someone in your life that you can talk to about things, but make sure that someone has your best intentions, or has the best of intentions and your best interest in mind. And that best interest is to point you to Jesus.

[00:23:04:09 - 00:23:37:04]
Tony Esslinger
 Yeah, accountability, is it? Or confessing your faults, or having someone in your life isn't always just to feel better, right? It's to draw us closer, to be more in the image of Christ. And sometimes that hurts a little bit. But if you have a brother that you can trust or a sister that you can trust, and then you know that you're loved by God, you know that you're the resurrection in Christ, if you know, right, all those foundational truths matter, then now I feel stronger that I can bring this out. I can feel that it's not just a safe place, but it's gonna make me stronger in my faith of who Christ is.

[00:23:37:04 - 00:23:40:00]
Brenton
 Yeah, okay, yeah, thanks guys.

[00:23:42:18 - 00:23:56:16]
Brenton
 Nate, you had talked about, and I think this is maybe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but a result of actually having a relationship with Jesus and trusting Him. You talked about finding satisfaction in Jesus.

[00:23:58:03 - 00:24:07:10]
Brenton
 And not just in what He gives us, but actually in the person of Jesus. What is being satisfied in Jesus look like?

[00:24:07:10 - 00:25:08:23]
Nate Todd
 So it's more about, I talked about the eternal life right now. What's this eternal life right now supposed to look like? And so one of these components of the eternal life right now, and just to clarify a little bit, eternal life, we're talking about quantity of life. And so eternal life is, yes, we're gonna have this eternal life going on forever in the future. But to the point is, eternal life starts right now for the believer. And so it's not just about quantity, but it's about quality. And so how do we have this quality eternal life right now? And it's finding your satisfaction in Jesus. And so to find your satisfaction in Jesus, I think about the simplest way that I can put it is making the King of your heart. And so he is the number one priority in your life. And that he, no matter what you do, I mean, obviously as fathers, husbands, you know, wives, mothers,

[00:25:10:02 - 00:25:24:12]
Nate Todd
 sisters in the Lord, we have relationships, we have responsibilities. We do have things that we're responsible for, but Jesus still has to take the priority. And so as we interact with these other relationships, other responsibilities that we have, our jobs,

[00:25:25:16 - 00:25:40:03]
Nate Todd
 our ministry work, whatever that may be, Jesus still has to be the focus. And we have to be doing everything that we're doing for the glory of God. And so finding your satisfaction in Jesus is that he is the number one priority in your life.

[00:25:42:21 - 00:25:43:17]
Brenton
 So that sounds hard.

[00:25:46:08 - 00:25:46:08]
 (Both Laughing)

[00:25:46:08 - 00:25:49:15]
Brenton
 Right? Like it's easy to say,

[00:25:50:22 - 00:26:00:07]
Brenton
 but how do we actually go about doing that? Like, you know, it's easy to sit here and talk about it and we can think we're gonna, you know,

[00:26:01:18 - 00:26:11:07]
Brenton
 set our priorities straight, but then we get into, you know, everyday life and it's just likely not the case, right? So how can we grow in this?

[00:26:11:07 - 00:26:28:05]
Nate Todd
 And so my final application point to the believer on Sunday was we strive to, or we seek to live our best eternal life. And so we do this out of adoration, not out of obligation. Nice little Augustine reference.

[00:26:29:10 - 00:28:10:07]
Nate Todd
 Live your best life, live your best eternal life. So we do this out of adoration, not obligation. And so how do we have adoration for Jesus? Well, we go back to the gospel and we remember that He did not have to have a relationship with us, but He chose to. Out of His love, His grace and His mercy, He chose to come and to die for sinners. And so as believers, we know that He died for us and we know that He loves us. And so we remember that and we remember what He did for us, His love for us, and we let that inform the decisions that we make. So then as we, yes, is it hard to make Him the King of your heart? Sure, absolutely it is. And so that's why we continue to go back to Him in light of the gospel. We continue to remember what He did for us and His love for us. And we use that as motivation for love to Him. But we're gonna fail and we're gonna continually fail. And so it's not about perfection, but it's about direction. And we continue to pursue Him. And we ask like we were talking about, we ask our brothers and sisters to help us in this journey. And we embark on a relationship with Him. So we dive into His word, we seek Him in prayer, and we ask Him to help us in this. We have the Spirit of God living inside of us as believers. And so we read God's word, we rely on the Spirit. We ask for help for brothers and sisters. And we remember that we are going to mess it up every single day.

[00:28:11:14 - 00:28:20:20]
Nate Todd
 Again, we go back to the gospel and we realize that we aren't gonna be perfect, but somebody was perfect for us and that someone loves us. And so, yeah.

[00:28:22:02 - 00:28:22:07]
Brenton
 Okay.

[00:28:23:18 - 00:28:26:11]
Brenton
 You both spent some time on the question

[00:28:27:13 - 00:28:30:20]
Brenton
 that Jesus asked Martha, which was, do you believe this?

[00:28:32:15 - 00:28:37:01]
Brenton
 Why did you guys find this question so central to the passage?

[00:28:39:10 - 00:28:54:12]
Nate Todd
 Yeah, I think that the reason why this is so essential is because Jesus said, I am the resurrection in life. So the hope of being raised to new physical life in the future, that is only through me.

[00:28:55:15 - 00:29:49:14]
Nate Todd
 And the fact Jesus says that, and then the fact of there's only one way to have eternal new spiritual life, and that is through Jesus. And do you believe this? And so that's so essential to this, because that's what we have to come to terms with. And that's what we have to believe today is that Jesus is the only way. And so he asked Martha this because that's the point. Like, do you believe that I am the only way to have salvation? And he wanted to make sure that she knew that, that she wasn't just focusing on the resurrection to come. She wasn't just focusing on hope of the future of her religion, she was focusing on him. And that's no different than us today. We have to focus that there is only one way to be in a right relationship with the Father. There's only one way to have physical and spiritual resurrection, and that is through Jesus.

[00:29:49:14 - 00:29:55:18]
Tony Esslinger
 Yeah, and I think that's the question we asked, whether we're believers or unbelievers. The question doesn't change.

[00:29:56:19 - 00:31:46:07]
Tony Esslinger
 Do we believe what Jesus says? And does our life reflect that? A lot of times we connect with people and say, "Oh yeah, I believe in God." You know, and my response is always like, "And the demons do too." They tremble, you're not even trembling, right? And so we realize that we like to know what we know. In the reality is Jesus is flipping that upon its head. You know, Martha wanted to declare that, yes, I know why you're here. I know what you're here for. You're here to raise Lazarus. Let's just get this done and get this going, right? We know that there's a deeper heart than that, but when we read it at first glance, that can be what it is. And I was just, I talked about in my, just we know, you know, Romans 10, because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, that's what she did. She started out saying, "Lord," right? And that's what happens, a lot of us as believers. Yep, I confess with my mouth. I said a prayer, I walked an aisle, I'm good to go, right? But if, but because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart, that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. And there's that belief internally, deeply, that he was raised from the dead. It's the resurrection that you'll be saved. And so it's that confession teamed up with that belief in the resurrection, because that means that death is defeated. That means we have new eyes and slow down spirit as we look for the future. And that's what he wanted Martha to get. It's not about, as Nate says, it's not about the here and now. It's like, it is, it's not just here and now. And it's also not just we're waiting for the future. It's like, you were dead, you were resurrected. Now we're called to live now, yes, for eternity, but we're not waiting for heaven to start, you know, sharing the gospel, start living. But we're just, it's that declaration to do it now. And often we need to be reminded. I need to be reminded every day, do I believe in the gospel call in my life?

[00:31:47:12 - 00:31:47:17]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:31:49:06 - 00:32:00:19]
Brenton
 So how would you encourage someone who's wrestling with doubt, someone that, you know, isn't believing? How would you encourage them to move toward a more personal trust in Christ?

[00:32:02:01 - 00:32:03:03]
Tony Esslinger
 I think it's really important to,

[00:32:04:04 - 00:33:36:19]
Tony Esslinger
 this is where the personal relationship, this is where we see a lot of why are we scared to come to the Father? Why do we come? Why are we afraid to bring our doubts and our fears? And often it's because of past hurts. It's because of church hurt. It's because why knew somebody in the church and they did terrible things or they hurt me or I've seen scripture use that of context. And often that doubt is based on someone else's experience. So I just encourage people to, what is your personal experience? I think that goes back to, do you believe? It doesn't mean does Tony believe, does Nate believe, does Bretton believe, do you? God's calling us for a personal relationship. No one else is gonna hang out with us, right? At the end of our days, no one actually hangs out with us most of the time as we live out our lives, but we have the promise of the Holy Spirit. So just really encouraging people to don't, in our fear, let's approach our fear. Let's come to the, God asked us through Christ to come to the bold, come to the throne boldly, right? And that means be a Martha, throw it out there. But if you need to be a contemplating Mary, do that, but just know that that's the same spirit. And that's something I said too. God knows us intimately enough to know he gave us a personality, right? Of how we're gonna come to him. And so be okay with your doubt being erased. A lot of us, you think our doubt is to make us, it's a protective mechanism for the most part. We do that so I don't have to get hurt. Jesus is worthy of letting that guard down.

[00:33:36:19 - 00:33:59:23]
Brenton
 Yeah, well, and sometimes it's sin, right? Absolutely. Sometimes we need to actually just confess our unbelief. And so I think that's an important process too, that a lot of what you just talked about is a lot of external things that are affecting us, but sometimes it's stemming from us too. So that's why confession's important.

[00:33:59:23 - 00:34:36:03]
Tony Esslinger
 And life will, I think we all have the experience for ourselves through communion, or there'll be a really powerful sermon and we'll go home and we're gonna change this and do this. I personally have had plenty of people come and email me, text me, come up to me afterwards in tears, broken. We have this great prayer and we'll connect. And all of a sudden it's like, a month later, we're like, what happened? Where did we go? And what happens is like, did we believe? We had thoughts for a moment, we like the idea, but then doubt comes back in. And it's that idea of like, we have to know in those moments,

[00:34:37:10 - 00:34:40:00]
Tony Esslinger
 do we believe that he's a resurrection, that he can change me?

[00:34:41:18 - 00:35:30:09]
Nate Todd
 Yeah, I think it's also good to share those doubts. Again, community's so important and sharing those doubts with your brothers and sisters, because guess what? They're gonna share with you that they've had doubts before or maybe they currently have doubts. But that's a great opportunity for you guys to dive into the word together. And so John six verse 68, Simon Peter answered him, Jesus says, do you wanna go away as well? And Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go?" You have the words of eternal life. And so I've experienced doubt and I go back to this right here. And it's like, I have doubts and I think that maybe other people, even in the Bible were having doubts. And then I asked myself, where else am I gonna go? I know that this is the right answer. This is the only answer.

[00:35:31:14 - 00:35:41:15]
Brenton
 Yeah, it's good. All right, well, we'll wrap there. Really appreciate you guys coming in, talking to me. It was great to be here. Yeah, it was a good conversation. If you guys have any questions,

[00:35:43:17 - 00:35:50:13]
Brenton
 feel free to email us ask at furtherpodcast.com. And we will talk to you guys next week. Thank you. See you later.

[00:35:52:09 - 00:35:56:01]
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