[00:01:20:06 - 00:01:22:12]
Brenton
 Welcome back to Further. I am Brenton Grimm.

[00:01:23:20 - 00:01:28:15]
Brenton
 This week's kind of exciting. We got Nathan Williams. He's a regular at this point, so welcome.

[00:01:30:05 - 00:01:44:17]
Brenton
 But we got two new guys to the show here. So Coleman Reed, he preached in Fort Madison this week. And Kyle Knoll preached in Burlington. So welcome, guys. Thank you. Appreciate you coming. Yeah.

[00:01:45:22 - 00:01:49:13]
Brenton
 I want to take just a little bit of time for both of you to kind of introduce yourselves.

[00:01:50:14 - 00:01:53:16]
Brenton
 Who are you? And what's your role at Harmony?

[00:01:55:23 - 00:02:09:11]
Coleman
 Yeah, I'm Coleman Reed. From Southeast Iowa, originally moved back home in March of this year. And I serve as the assistant pastor for student ministries and community ministries at the Fort Madison campus. Nice.

[00:02:09:11 - 00:02:15:20]
Kyle
 Kyle? Yep, Kyle Knoll. I also grew up in Southeast Iowa. Moved away and moved back a couple of times.

[00:02:16:21 - 00:02:31:19]
Kyle
 My wife, Kristie and I, and our five kids started going to the Danville campus about three years ago. And then just joined the staff here last year, the assistant pastor for student ministries at the Burlington campus.

[00:02:33:10 - 00:02:35:01]
Brenton
 Nice. Well, thanks, guys.

[00:02:37:02 - 00:02:42:09]
Brenton
 Kyle, I kind of want to comment on all of your Lord of the Rings stuff this week. I expect to, so? You know,

[00:02:43:11 - 00:02:51:22]
Brenton
 I've never seen the director-- any of the director's cuts. Why? Well, the theatrical releases are already too long, in my opinion.

[00:02:53:06 - 00:02:56:06]
Brenton
 So can you convince me? Is there a--

[00:02:57:20 - 00:03:05:23]
Kyle
 I think if you watch it, you'll be convinced. Yes. I will say that's the topic that I got the most comments on after I preached, yes.

[00:03:05:23 - 00:03:06:07]
Brenton
 I bet.

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Coleman
 Not your pants.

[00:03:08:02 - 00:03:09:00]
Brenton
 The pants that come out.

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Coleman
 Not my pants.

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Coleman
 Those are my favorite part.

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Brenton
 We appreciate your brightly colored pants.

[00:03:17:13 - 00:03:18:07]
Brenton
 OK, great.

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Kyle
 Make sure my wife hears that.

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Brenton
 There you go, Kristie.

[00:03:24:14 - 00:03:34:22]
Brenton
 So as you guys prepared your messages this week, I'm curious what was your biggest takeaway from the passage? We just kind of go around the table and tell me what stood out to you.

[00:03:38:03 - 00:03:52:08]
Speaker 5
 Yeah, I'll go first. Yeah, I would say as I'm going through this, it really hit me. You know what I mean? John is talking about, you know, he's giving all these proofs for Jesus and the hardness of people's hearts.

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Speaker 5
 And that just--

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Speaker 5
 if you were in Danville and heard my sermon, you'll know that's kind of the avenue I took. You know what I mean?

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Speaker 5
 When our hearts are hard,

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Speaker 5
 it's tragic, but it's so dangerous.

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Speaker 5
 And this just came over and over again. So if we continue to harden our hearts, it's like we're going down a road that's going to be really, really hard to turn around from. So that's kind of what hit me.

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Brenton
 Yeah.

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Coleman
 Yeah, and for me, it was through Christ's example and then the last three verses, Isaiah's example of just how they respond to the Lord's glory.

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Coleman
 In verse 41, it says, Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. And in light of the context of the passage, we see that he's talking about Christ. And just the difference between his response and then the crowd gathers response to God's glory,

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Coleman
 I couldn't shake it from my mind. And I think for the people that were in Fort Madison, they probably heard that phrase many times. Yeah.

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Kyle
 When I was given this date to preach and saw that there was this text, I was excited because this part of the narrative and John have been pointed out to me a couple of years ago how the idea of God's glory here is building towards the cross.

[00:05:17:23 - 00:05:32:02]
Kyle
 And I really appreciated hearing Andrew just a couple of weeks ago and preaching about it. He pointed out the use or the idea of God being glorified here is God being shown, being revealed.

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Kyle
 And so that really stuck out to me. And I was excited to be able to walk through that in this text.

[00:05:39:22 - 00:05:48:11]
Brenton
 Yeah, good. Yeah, it's an important passage. And there's a lot in there too. So I'm excited about our conversation today.

[00:05:50:05 - 00:05:59:11]
Brenton
 Just as a point of clarification, this question got added in a little late. In verse 32, Jesus says, "When I am lifted up from the earth,

[00:06:01:07 - 00:06:09:11]
Brenton
 I will draw all people to myself." So Coleman, you talked about this a little bit in your sermon. What does Jesus mean by all people here?

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Coleman
 Yeah, so if we look at the context of the verse itself, he's responding to the Lord speaking. The crowd's gathered.

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Coleman
 And I think if we just pull this verse out of context, we can miss out on the meaning altogether. And we can be maybe fooled into thinking that this means every person who's ever lived or every person that's gathered in the crowd today. But if we read in the context of what's actually taking place, we very quickly realize that that's not the case. In verse 20, the passage that Pastor Clark preached a few months ago during Commitment Sunday, we see that the Greeks have come to the feast. And we see in that passage, verses 20 through 26, that they're actually seeking Jesus. We don't know exactly to what extent that means, but with that introduction of the Greeks for those of us on this side of the cross, we can recognize that that means Gentiles, that means us, that means all nations. And if that weren't the case, if the Lord could not through Christ's work be able to bring all people to himself, meaning all nations,

[00:07:11:08 - 00:07:24:08]
Coleman
 well, there wouldn't be a podcast right now, first off. But also it means that we would have no hope. We'd be in the kingdom of darkness and by His grace, His drawing of all people, all nations to Himself, we can be included into that kingdom.

[00:07:24:08 - 00:07:39:07]
Brenton
 Yeah, that's good. I appreciate that. I think we've talked about it a little bit since we started the John series, but it's so context specific in how John talks about things, like the way he uses the world. And they're just all...

[00:07:41:03 - 00:07:48:23]
Brenton
 You really have to pay attention to what he's talking about there and not to jump into something that he wasn't actually meaning. So, okay, thanks for that quick question.

[00:07:48:23 - 00:08:31:03]
Speaker 5
 I think I was really glad to hear Coleman actually addressing this, because it was there, but to be quite honest, I got so much to cover, so I don't think you really delved into it either, Kyle, but it's kind of just you read it and you kind of kept going, I did anyway. But I was really glad to see it. But thinking about it in the context of the people he's actually speaking, that was... We read that and we're like, "Okay, no big deal. Yeah, he's gonna draw." But to those people hearing that day, I mean, most of those people would have been... This would be like, "What? No, it's just us. It's the Jews. We're exclusive." You know what I mean? So, for Jesus to say that out loud for everybody, that would have been a big deal.

[00:08:31:03 - 00:08:35:05]
Brenton
 That's a good point. The Jewish reaction to that would have been interesting.

[00:08:35:05 - 00:09:05:19]
Kyle
 I think it's interesting too. One of the obvious applications of this text in general is, how do people receive Jesus's words? And some of them are condemned for hearing, but wanting to believe what they wanted to believe and not what Jesus is actually saying. So, we have to apply that to this specific point. Is Jesus actually saying that? No, we make sure we hear everything that Jesus says. And when you have your ears open to hear that, you will hear Jesus clearly saying what he means by all people.

[00:09:05:19 - 00:09:27:01]
Speaker 5
 Right, because there's other passages where Jesus is very clear. When he talks about separating the sheep from the goats, and there'll be casting darks, he's not saying all people, as in 100% of the people all around the world will be saved. So, yeah, it's really good that we don't cherry pick the verses and apply them to what we want. You know what I mean? So, that's a good point.

[00:09:27:01 - 00:09:28:11]
Brenton
 Yeah, it's really good.

[00:09:29:11 - 00:09:41:18]
Brenton
 Okay, Nathan, you got a reference to the magician's nephew, and that really stuck out to me. For anyone who's not familiar with the book, it's the first book in the Narnia series by C.S. Lewis.

[00:09:42:23 - 00:10:12:20]
Brenton
 And I've always really loved this scene where Aslan is creating Narnia. I think it's really well written. But Uncle Andrew, and I don't know if this really stuck out to me that much until you brought this up, but he's in the middle of the scene where Aslan's literally creating a world, and he's just completely distracted by what he can gain from it. He's seeing all of these things happen, he's seeing Aslan's power,

[00:10:14:06 - 00:10:52:01]
Brenton
 but none of it's affecting him. He's just worried about himself. And so, you would kind of connect this to the passage, and we'd see a similar scene here where the father like audibly speaks to the crowd, right? But there's still unbelief. Some people misinterpret this as thunder, right? So, I think that this really does help to illustrate the point that God is the only one who can open our eyes to the truth. And so, I'm curious, can you talk about this in the context of evangelism? I'm sure you often talk to people who have no desire for God.

[00:10:52:01 - 00:12:47:11]
Speaker 5
 Right, right, sure. But first of all, let me just say, if you're not familiar with this, especially for those who you have kids, and he's not as adults, just a fascinating story. So really, what it is is an analogy or an allegory of really of God and creation, and then the sinfulness of man and redemption, you know what I mean? And so, here we have this Uncle Andrew, as the book calls him, who's literally evil at heart, you know what I mean? And even as we see the story going on, you know, he meets this witch and he thinks, you know what I mean? "Oh, I can be famous, I can have everything by following her," instead of believing what he actually sees in Aslan, who's representative of God in the fantasy story, who's a lion, who's good and is just creating everything. But because of... It really boils down to this, it's our desires of our heart, I think. And for him, the desires of his heart is, "What can I get for me? How can I even use other people?" He was using the children to get what he wants. That's how they ended up actually being transported into Narnia. But how can I get what I want? And then to see the miraculous things happening around, refused to believe. So in his unbelief, he wasn't able to see, hear or feel the reality of what was going on. So you asked me about evangelism and really it boils down to this, where's our heart? You know what I mean? So I think if there's a willingness to hear, God speaks to us. If there's an unwillingness to hear, it's really hard to hear his voice, really hard. Let me say it like this.

[00:12:48:21 - 00:13:28:20]
Speaker 5
 A lot of times when I'm talking to people, you know, and I might even be sharing the gospel or just an encouragement or whatever, and I'll say, "Can I pray for you?" And I'd say most of the time people will say, "Well, sure, and I'll pray." Even if they're not believers, they're open to letting me pray for them. And a lot of times you finish praying, you look up, and there's tears streaming down their face because you know they've been moved to the fact that somebody cared enough to pray for them. But once in a while, in fact, it just happened last week, I'll say, "Can I pray for you?" And you think you've had a good conversation, but can I pray for you? And they're like, "No."

[00:13:30:00 - 00:13:54:03]
Speaker 5
 And that's the hardness of heart. You know, I'm willing to enter into a conversation with you, but when it comes to spiritual matters of God, it's like, I don't want to hear. And it's that hardness of heart that we decide that actually makes that buck. So in evangelism, you've got to have an open heart to hear.

[00:13:55:10 - 00:14:08:15]
Speaker 5
 And it's not like God wants everyone. It's His desire that all should repent and come to salvation, right? That none should perish, but all should repent. It's all about that relationship.

[00:14:09:20 - 00:14:25:01]
Speaker 5
 It's His desire, but He's not going to force anybody. You know, ultimately, we all have a decision to make on our own. And that really boils down to this, am I going to harden my heart or am I not going to harden my heart? And we can talk about that maybe later on in the passage.

[00:14:26:08 - 00:14:29:11]
Speaker 5
 But ultimately, I have the choice.

[00:14:31:05 - 00:14:39:03]
Speaker 5
 And so when it comes to evangelism, a lot of times I got to remember, I can't say, but I can't convince anybody if they've got a hard heart.

[00:14:40:20 - 00:15:29:14]
Speaker 5
 And so for me, it's kind of like, you know what? I'm willing to talk to you as long as you want to listen. And as long as you're listening, but if you like put up your hand and say, "No, don't pray with me," it's like, you know what? It's like, okay, it's up to God. I can't save anyone when God can. It's kind of like when He sends the 72 disciples out and says, "Go into the cities," you know what I mean? And if they accept, you stay there, preach to them. Heal the sick. If they don't, dust off your feet, keep going. Because we don't want to get bogged down, keep on trying to evangelize the person who's out of a hard heart, like Uncle Andrew, and they're not going to listen anyway because they have made it up in their mind that they're not going to listen, period.

[00:15:30:14 - 00:15:30:19]
Speaker 5
 Right.

[00:15:32:00 - 00:16:01:10]
Brenton
 Yeah, I guess, yeah, my question, I think you've kind of answered is, at what point do you just leave it in God's hands, right? So, like, we feel a responsibility to unbelievers to convert them, but the reality is we can't convince anyone into the Kingdom, right? We're not going to give them enough evidence to change their minds without God actually regenerating them and giving them a new heart. Oh, yeah.

[00:16:01:10 - 00:16:23:05]
Speaker 5
 It's not going to happen. 100%. What I just said is really hard, especially if they're your family, you know? For sure. Because it's like, "Oh, how do I give up?" You know what I mean? Well, you know, we can plant seeds and we can pray that God does a work, you know? Because really, it's only Him that can do the work that He can harden hearts, but He can soften hearts.

[00:16:24:07 - 00:16:33:03]
Speaker 5
 And where do we have the wisdom to know and where that is, you know what I mean? At some point in time, you've just got to say, "God,

[00:16:34:05 - 00:16:35:21]
Speaker 5
 I'm hitting a brick wall here.

[00:16:36:21 - 00:16:49:14]
Speaker 5
 I'm walking away. It's up to you. I leave them in your hand." You know what I mean? And that's what I'm saying, a couple years later, maybe they'll come back and say, "Whoa, what happened to you? You're ready to listen. Let's do this." You know what I mean? So God does the work.

[00:16:49:14 - 00:16:50:03]
Brenton
 Right.

[00:16:51:04 - 00:16:52:09]
Brenton
 Any other thoughts on that, guys?

[00:16:52:09 - 00:17:32:10]
Coleman
 I think it's a good word. I would just say as I was listening to you, Nathan, my own heart's disposition with that is usually impatience. And so I'm prone to maybe draw that line a little too quick. And in reality, like, praise the Lord that we have a long suffering God who's not that way. And so even if I'm measuring success on my terms or how much it takes me back when I'm trying to pour out into them or getting to meet up with them, there is an element of preaching the gospel that is going to be inconvenient for us. And I think we need to recognize that reality, especially in the day and age we're in, where everything is at the palm of our hands and we can get to it right away. Well, that also impacts us and our impatience.

[00:17:33:11 - 00:17:47:12]
Coleman
 And so being long suffering, the ministry of presence, especially with family, if you've been faithfully declaring the word year after year, it doesn't mean you have to quit showing up to birthdays or parties, right? You can still love on them. You can still be excited when they're there and let the Lord do the work.

[00:17:47:12 - 00:18:04:04]
Kyle
 Yeah. Yeah. I would say that we need to remember that the judgment of someone being blinded or deaf to the words or if their heart is hardened, that judgment is God's to make, not ours. Yeah.

[00:18:05:06 - 00:18:44:14]
Kyle
 We... There's caution in Scripture about putting your pearls before swine, but we should be very, very slow to think that somebody is done hearing God's word. I was remembering a story I heard of a man, I think it was in the colonial era, a couple hundred years ago, a man who heard the gospel, remembered hearing the gospel when he was a boy from a preacher and then did nothing with it. And he was working in his field when he was in his eighties and remembered that sermon and sat down and repented of his sins.

[00:18:46:02 - 00:18:51:07]
Kyle
 So God has that long view and in view, even if we don't.

[00:18:51:07 - 00:18:51:18]
Speaker 6
 Yeah.

[00:18:51:18 - 00:19:08:20]
Brenton
 Well, there's certainly something to be said about our faithfulness in preaching the word, right? Like that is our role. Our role is not to save anybody, but yet God works through our faithfulness. And I think that's been made clear over and over. Yes, sir.

[00:19:10:19 - 00:19:15:03]
Brenton
 Coleman, you quoted question six from the New City Catechism.

[00:19:16:08 - 00:19:18:19]
Brenton
 The question is, how can we glorify God?

[00:19:20:01 - 00:19:37:23]
Brenton
 The Catechism answers by saying we glorify God by enjoying Him, loving Him, trusting Him, and by obeying His will, commands and law. Can you expand on this for us a little bit? What does glorifying God practically look like in our daily lives?

[00:19:37:23 - 00:21:01:13]
Coleman
 Yeah, that's a great question. So the question came to me from the, I mentioned on Sunday, the musical version of the New City Catechism, which is apparent if you're looking for great things for your kids, but songs that are going to get stuck in your head forever. It's a great album. But yeah, and it's simply this, right? That we can enjoy Him, love Him, and trust Him, and obey His will, commands and law. And at first, my disposition is to like, how do I define that further? But if I think of the way it's laid out for some scripture, there's a reason that the ordinary means of grace, which is kind of like the marching orders of the Christian life, are referred to as the ordinary means of grace. There's an everyday element of them that allows us to participate in glorifying the Lord. So I think about praying, reading our Bible, going to church, fellowshiping with His saints. These are all very much everyday things that we get to participate in that are for His glory. But by the means of redemption, we also can go to a sporting event and glorify the Lord by enjoying athletics, or going to a play, or reading a book. The glory of the Lord is not defined just a certain avenue that in our finite minds we think we get, right? And so it is the ordinary means of grace. It is the beauty of the local church, but it is also because of who our God is in every avenue of our life. And so for me especially, what I recognize very quickly is that my own perspective is usually limited to myself. And when that's the case,

[00:21:02:16 - 00:21:20:00]
Coleman
 I'm not focused on glorifying the Lord. I'm focused on serving myself, my comforts, my desires, instead of having my perspective shifted to heavenward, shifted to what the Lord would have it be, and looking all around me for His glory and seeing how that impacts my life.

[00:21:21:02 - 00:21:32:07]
Brenton
 Yeah, well, yeah, you also did on Sunday spend some time like contrasting how we often live for our own glory, right? And maybe we wouldn't put it that way, but that's what we're doing.

[00:21:33:19 - 00:21:37:14]
Brenton
 How can we kind of better recognize that in ourselves when we're doing it?

[00:21:37:14 - 00:22:41:15]
Coleman
 Sure. So I mentioned when you asked us what stuck out from our study, what really hit home with me was the way that Isaiah saw God's glory and Christ saw God's glory. And what made that stand out for me so much is how I see my own glory, right? We have a four-year-old right now. I mentioned in my sermon on Sunday, and it is so evident that most of the time, whether with my bride or my children, I'm focused on myself and my glory. And how that plays out is, how do I want people to respond to me in that moment? How do I want the situation to go? Well, usually I just want streamlined obedience out of my children, and how do I get to me time quicker? And just even that thought in our minds of me time, I think is a dangerous notion, right? The Bible is very clear. We need to rest, but that's rest found in the Lord. And so as I mentioned at the top of the show, we moved back here in March. We still are living with my parents. God bless them. And I'm very thankful for that. But one of the ways I have been challenged is how often I'm desiring me time instead of he time, right? Instead of time with him.

[00:22:42:16 - 00:23:15:12]
Coleman
 And I think when we notice that shift in our lives, when we see how we react to situations, and we can see that, oh my goodness, I do want to be served and not serve, right? I do want to be like magnified by other people or get praise. I want just time as I would define it and not time in the word. I think we need to recognize that as a litmus test and a heart check and to kind of follow our needs and repentance. And to be frank, that's where I've been the last six or so months, it feels like, is I just have been recognizing so quickly my love of self and my glory.

[00:23:17:09 - 00:23:23:22]
Coleman
 And when we hold that up to the glory of the Lord, it is not as bright and it really penetrates our hearts and how often that is.

[00:23:25:00 - 00:23:36:07]
Brenton
 Yeah. Maybe I'll pose this to all of you guys to follow up on that. If we do recognize it, like how should we reorient our hearts away from ourselves?

[00:23:39:21 - 00:24:01:13]
Kyle
 Simple, but not simplistic answer, I think is the gospel, rehearse the gospel. I'm a sinner. I need to die to myself. Jesus died for me to make me new. I need to walk in the newness of life. It's not about me anymore. And being about me is what I should have repented of to turn to Christ in faith.

[00:24:01:13 - 00:24:02:07]
Speaker 6
 Yeah.

[00:24:04:08 - 00:24:06:23]
Speaker 5
 Yeah, absolutely. It's really about our heart.

[00:24:08:02 - 00:24:14:10]
Speaker 5
 And by nature, what is our heart? Our heart by nature is wicked. Yeah.

[00:24:17:03 - 00:24:20:20]
Speaker 5
 Even though we've been redeemed, we've been given a new heart, right?

[00:24:23:05 - 00:24:26:11]
Speaker 5
 Without continually keeping our eyes on the Lord,

[00:24:28:00 - 00:24:36:07]
Speaker 5
 the draw is always back towards our old, sinful heart. And our old, sinful heart is selfish.

[00:24:37:07 - 00:24:47:23]
Speaker 5
 It is wrong. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I like what you just said, Kyle. We got to keep preaching the gospel to ourselves. Remember,

[00:24:49:14 - 00:25:11:22]
Speaker 5
 why am I like this? Why have I got to change our... It's because of what Jesus has done for me. So keeping focused on the cross is the greatest thing we can ever do to keep ourselves from going back to that hard heart again, that bitterness, that whatever it is, that's this selfishness, I guess, of wanting to glorify ourselves.

[00:25:13:00 - 00:25:37:11]
Speaker 5
 And it's a big thing. You know what I mean? Satan knew this. He tried to tempt Jesus in that, right? He says, "Look at all these things. I'll give you this." He was appealing to Jesus glorifying himself, even though Jesus deserved all the glory, but Satan didn't even understand all that because his heart was evil. And if he's going to tempt Jesus with that, you know he's going to tempt us with that too, all the time.

[00:25:37:11 - 00:25:59:23]
Coleman
 Well, to that point, Nathan, I mean, look at Christ as our model there. How does Christ combat Satan in that moment? He quotes scripture, right? I would say amen to both Nathan and Kyle. And also, like reading the Bible is some of the greatest way that we can combat our own perspective. When we focus on God's glory, whether that's reviewing his attributes, his holiness, his sovereignty, his perfection,

[00:26:01:06 - 00:26:09:12]
Coleman
 I mean, very quickly we take the focus off of ourselves. And when we take the focus off of ourselves and onto him, we're going to quit glorifying ourselves. We're going to quit living for ourselves.

[00:26:10:21 - 00:26:13:07]
Coleman
 I think Christ's example in temptation is a beautiful picture of that.

[00:26:14:14 - 00:26:15:04]
Brenton
 That's good.

[00:26:16:16 - 00:26:20:08]
Brenton
 Okay, so I'm gonna lay this out for all of you guys.

[00:26:21:12 - 00:26:46:22]
Brenton
 So in this passage, Jesus quotes Isaiah 6, and we've talked about this a little bit, but it says, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them." So the idea that Jesus hardens people's hearts can be a difficult truth for many people, and this isn't the only place in scripture that we see this happening.

[00:26:48:10 - 00:26:57:15]
Brenton
 Can one of you guys just kind of give a little bit of background on what Isaiah is writing about here? Like what is the background in chapter 6 here?

[00:26:59:15 - 00:27:02:01]
Speaker 5
 Kyle, you probably, Kyle,

[00:27:03:18 - 00:27:09:23]
Speaker 5
 delved more into the background of this in your sermon than actually either of us, right? Whatever you're writing and saying that.

[00:27:09:23 - 00:27:10:05]
Kyle
 I mean Coleman.

[00:27:10:05 - 00:27:22:09]
Speaker 5
 I meant Coleman, yeah, yeah. I'm pointing at Coleman and Coleman, Kyle. Yeah, I did. But so, yeah, I've got some thoughts on this, but I'd like you to just kind of reiterate a little bit of what you were talking about in the background there in Isaiah first.

[00:27:22:09 - 00:27:57:16]
Coleman
 Yeah, let's start with the context of Isaiah's life. So Isaiah is in Jerusalem towards the end of the Israelite king's reign, and we've already seen throughout the Old Testament where Israelites have not been living for the glory of God. And at this point in Isaiah's life, specifically who's taking place is rampant idolatry, mistreatment of the poor, fashioning a kingdom out of their own likeness, seeking kings that the Lord has not necessarily directed them to. And so when Isaiah in chapter 6 beholds the glory of the Lord,

[00:27:58:17 - 00:28:24:03]
Coleman
 he recognizes the fact that God's glory is all there is to live for. And so he then has his life shaped by that and begins proclaiming and recognizing the need to repent and turn. And so where we enter into the passage here, what John actually quotes is focusing on the blinding of their eyes and the hardening of their hearts. The whole passage talks specifically about the stopping up of their ears, depending on which translation you're reading. But

[00:28:25:03 - 00:28:28:02]
Coleman
 yeah, that's where Isaiah steps in here.

[00:28:29:15 - 00:28:37:13]
Coleman
 And I think it's important for us, I think Kyle mentioned earlier on, we need to recognize this blinding and the hardening is from the perspective of the sovereign Lord, right?

[00:28:38:14 - 00:28:49:10]
Coleman
 This is not a final judgment that mankind can bear. This is not a looking around the room or the street while you're trying to evangelize and figure out who's blind or whose hearts are hardened.

[00:28:50:17 - 00:28:57:01]
Coleman
 That's not what Isaiah is doing. Isaiah is speaking as a mouthpiece of the Lord. And so I think that's just a helpful context as we step into this conversation a little further.

[00:28:58:17 - 00:29:00:13]
Brenton
 Yeah, Nathan, did you have something there too?

[00:29:00:13 - 00:29:39:14]
Speaker 5
 Yeah, so this is not directly, but it's related to this whole thing, you know what I mean? So you notice when John quotes Isaiah, especially he has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, the word in the verse before that starts out, "Therefore." Therefore, because of... Because of what? Why did Jesus blind their heart? Because of their unbelief. When we go back to though they had seen so many signs before them, they still did not believe.

[00:29:41:23 - 00:29:52:15]
Speaker 5
 "Therefore, because of their unbelief." Jesus says, "All right." And then I love the way Hebrews actually brings that out. You know, in Hebrews chapter 3,

[00:29:54:02 - 00:30:04:15]
Speaker 5
 verse 12, the author says, "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil,

[00:30:05:15 - 00:31:51:17]
Speaker 5
 unbelieving heart." There it is again, that unbelieving heart leading you to fall away from the living God. "But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called today, that none of you be hardened by God, no, by the deceitfulness of sin." So really, really, what's the first thing? So you got to put it in order. It's the unbelief, our desire to... I don't know if desire's right, but our stubbornness, maybe that's a better word, to says, "No, I am not going to believe." And we harden our own hearts, hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, that's our sinful nature, "For we have come to share in Christ." "For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold to the original confidence firm to the end, as He said, today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion." And then he goes on to really what he's quoting there from, is from Psalm 95, and I want to just turn it there real quick, but before I do that, and then he goes on to explain, he's talking about the people and the children of Israel in the wilderness. And the last verse in chapter 3 says, "So we see that they were unable to enter because of their unbelief," and again, that's a direct quote out of Psalm 95. So let me just read a little bit here, starting verse 6 actually. This is the softened heart that God wants. He says,

[00:31:52:22 - 00:32:45:14]
Speaker 5
 verse 6 of Psalm 95, "O come, let us worship and bow down, let us kneel before the Lord our Maker, for He is our God, and we are His people, the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand." And then he goes right into quoting what Hebrew said, "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as at Marab." Now, God didn't harden their hearts, they harden their own hearts, don't harden as they did, right? "As on the day of Massa in the wilderness, when your fathers put me to the test and put me to the proof, though they had seen my work," here again, once again, the evidence is there just as it was indeed Jesus, it was evident to the children of Israel, they had just seen God doing amazing work opening up the Red Sea, bringing them through out of the land of Egypt.

[00:32:46:23 - 00:32:56:19]
Speaker 5
 "40 years I loathe this generation and said, these people, these are a people who have gone astray in their hearts, right?

[00:32:58:21 - 00:33:18:21]
Speaker 5
 And they have not known my ways. Therefore," there's that word again, "therefore, therefore I swore in my wrath," this is God speaking now, "they shall not enter my rest." So, first of all, the hardening of the heart comes from ourselves, from our sinful desire. We harden our own hearts with our unbelief.

[00:33:20:06 - 00:33:40:02]
Speaker 5
 Now, it comes a point in time, God says, "You continue to harden your heart? I'll make it so that it can't be softened." I'm not going to harden your heart, well, He can, but I don't think He does because it's His desire that none should perish, right? But this is the really scary thing from this whole passage for me, our refusal to believe,

[00:33:41:14 - 00:33:49:09]
Speaker 5
 our continually hardening of our heart comes to the point in time where God says, "All right, all right.

[00:33:52:00 - 00:34:02:19]
Speaker 5
 You've had all the chances in the world, now I'm going to make it so that you won't be able to." Years ago, we had this dog, we got him as a pup,

[00:34:03:19 - 00:34:14:23]
Speaker 5
 and he was just not a good pup. I mean, he would growl and bark and no matter how, and snap and bite a kid, you know, okay.

[00:34:16:00 - 00:34:27:20]
Speaker 5
 I said to my wife, "We gave him all the chance in the world, I'm done. He's gone." He's gone. Now, luckily, before I had to do anything, I hit by a car, so God took care of it for me, right?

[00:34:27:20 - 00:34:30:09]
Brenton
 He gave him over to his sinful desires.

[00:34:30:09 - 00:34:51:16]
Speaker 5
 Right, but yes, so at some point in time, you know what I mean? And that's a human example of that was my being done, I've had enough. And sometimes, now here's the deal, can God soften anyone's heart? He softened Saul's heart and he became the apostle Paul, right?

[00:34:53:05 - 00:35:07:08]
Speaker 5
 So, God can do anything, but I think this is a direct warning to anybody who says, "I'm not going to believe." And when we continue to do that, at some point in time, God says, "All right,

[00:35:08:15 - 00:35:09:07]
Speaker 5
 have your way.

[00:35:09:07 - 00:35:28:19]
Brenton
 There's a shovel, dig your own grave." What you're referring to is kind of this Romans 1 idea. Yeah, yeah. Where God gave them over to their self's desires. So obviously, there is a man's responsibility in there that's foundational to this, that is their desire, God gives them over to that.

[00:35:29:22 - 00:35:42:10]
Brenton
 I am curious though, in John 12, you'd said, you'd kind of laid out the order. Where did that come from? Because I'm reading what I think was that section. What were you referring to there?

[00:35:42:10 - 00:35:48:02]
Speaker 5
 So, in John 12, you're looking at the end of 36,

[00:35:51:15 - 00:36:17:20]
Speaker 5
 Jesus said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. And then 37, though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe. Here's our saying, "You know what? I've seen all the evidence, I've heard everything." They got to witness the first time. They got to witness Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead only a few days beforehand, right? And still they refused to believe.

[00:36:17:20 - 00:36:18:09]
Speaker 6
 Yep.

[00:36:18:09 - 00:36:23:22]
Kyle
 So... Pivots in verse 39 with the "therefore." Right, right. Therefore, yeah.

[00:36:23:22 - 00:37:20:05]
Brenton
 Right. So how I guess I read this, and maybe we can just go back and forth a little bit. So, right after 37, they still did not believe. 38 says, "So that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled." So, to me, like this is... The reason they didn't believe was because Jesus was fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah, right? So, the prophecy here is, "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore, they could not believe. So, to me... And maybe the distinction I would put is like, you know, we look at situations like special situations like Pharaoh, right? Where I think that that's not necessarily a normative approach by God of how He deals with Pharaoh, but He had very specific reasons in that instance for why He did what He did.

[00:37:21:14 - 00:37:39:21]
Speaker 5
 Right. So going back to Hebrews where it says, "So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief." Now, we can apply that also to Pharaoh. Now, did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Absolutely. In a special way, right? In a special way to get his purpose across.

[00:37:41:00 - 00:37:54:16]
Speaker 5
 But also, Pharaoh had to take blame on this because of his unbelief. You know what I mean? Moses and Aaron came and said, "Hey, let me show you." And he says, "Oh yeah, let me show you what my magicians can do."

[00:37:55:20 - 00:38:09:12]
Speaker 5
 So his unbelief and his heart, you know, I would contend that he hardened his heart first, and then God says, "Am I right? You're playing right into my game plan here. So if you want to harden your heart, I'll make sure it's even harder." Sure.

[00:38:09:12 - 00:38:18:03]
Brenton
 And in no way am I trying to take culpability away from the men here, right? They are totally responsible for their own sins.

[00:38:18:03 - 00:38:20:17]
Speaker 5
 So was that prophecy,

[00:38:22:07 - 00:38:57:11]
Speaker 5
 did God harden their hearts just so that the prophecy could be fulfilled? I would say no. I would say he knew that they were going to have a hard heart anyway, because God knows everything. And so the prophet said, "These people are going to have a hard heart, and this is going to be the result, and that's exactly what happened." You know what I mean? And therefore, the prophecy was fulfilled because God knew they were going to have a hard heart. And they did have a hard heart. And God says, "All right, you want to continue to reject me and have a hard heart?" Go with it. Romans 1. Sure.

[00:38:57:11 - 00:38:59:16]
Brenton
 Okay. What do you guys have to say about this?

[00:39:00:22 - 00:39:30:22]
Kyle
 I would say the prophecy is not the cause in this case. Sure. It's more of a commentary on what's already happening. And the cause is twofold, number one, man's own sinfulness, and then God's judgment on that unbelief. So in sequence or timeline that could get fuzzy, you understand God's sovereignty and human responsibility, but both things are required for the hardening of the heart. And I think

[00:39:33:20 - 00:39:37:23]
Kyle
 it's helpful for us to remember, even thinking through this, how am I going to speak of it?

[00:39:39:01 - 00:40:06:14]
Kyle
 It's helpful for us to remember that every human's baseline is hard heart. There's no human whose baseline status is neutral or leaning towards God. So if any of us are unhardened or softened at any point, it's because of God's mercy coming to us. And I also thought of a dog analogy there.

[00:40:07:14 - 00:40:22:13]
Kyle
 I have a dog and she really wants to be an inside dog. My judgment is, no, she's still an outside dog. She starts as an outside dog. And my continued judgment is, no, you're staying as an outside dog.

[00:40:25:18 - 00:40:28:15]
Kyle
 She really wants to be an inside dog.

[00:40:29:18 - 00:40:39:14]
Kyle
 God is not judging and keeping someone an outside dog who really wants to be an inside dog. He's only keeping someone an outside dog who is already said, "I'm refusing to come inside."

[00:40:39:14 - 00:40:43:18]
Coleman
 Absolutely. And that's a great point. I touched on it a bit on Sunday, but I think

[00:40:44:21 - 00:41:36:18]
Coleman
 from our finite perspective, we can very quickly want to play the fair game. Like what seems fair here? What doesn't seem fair that Jesus is doing the hardening? It doesn't seem fair that this is a fulfillment of prophecy. And I don't think we want to play the fair game when it comes to God. Fairness is not Christ on the cross for me. Fairness is not God's riches at Christ's expense. Fairness is that I remain dead in my trespasses and sins. And so it's just like any other part of scripture. If we want to pull it out of context and separate it from the attributes and the glory of God, His goodness, His justice, His perfection, we really miss out on the truth that this has in us. Even though there's a blinding on one side that's eternal, there's also an eternal keeping of those that are in Him on the other side. Right? This is a judicial process playing out here.

[00:41:38:11 - 00:41:57:02]
Coleman
 And there are some that are condemned forever because of the choices and culpability they made, but there's those of us who by God's grace have placed their faith in His Son that are kept forever. And not only is that not fair, but that is something that we should cling to and maybe even see more when we read passages like this. Yeah, that's really good.

[00:41:57:02 - 00:42:33:07]
Speaker 5
 I agree with you guys, you're saying, but I'm also glad to think that I'm not the judge. You know what I mean? As he says in 31, now is the judgment of this world. Jesus is the judge. And for me to make that judgment, when is a person's heart too hard? When is it not? I mean, I'd be messing that up every single day. So I can take that off myself and I don't have to think when is it fair, when is it not fair? Jesus, you're the judge. I trust you. Do I trust Him? Part of my saying that, well, that's not fair is me judging God. You know what I mean? And it's like, wait a second. You know what I mean?

[00:42:34:07 - 00:42:43:10]
Speaker 5
 Or even the hardness of my heart. I've got to have a heart that says, "God, you know better than me. What am I thinking?" Just whatever's best to you.

[00:42:44:13 - 00:43:26:21]
Brenton
 Yeah. Yeah. I think it is a nuanced conversation. I really do appreciate what you said, Kyle, there, about that there's nobody in this crowd saying, "Hey, I want to believe in you." And Jesus is saying, "No, I'm hardening your heart." Like that is not the situation. It is wicked people that are rejecting Him from their own sinful desires. And so we're not removing any responsibility. And we're also not saying that God is just stopping people that really want to come to Him. That's just not the situation in all of scripture. Right. So yeah. Good, good conversation.

[00:43:28:14 - 00:43:29:16]
Brenton
 Hopefully we got somewhere there.

[00:43:29:16 - 00:44:08:13]
Coleman
 And I would just add, this is a brief paraphrase of something R.C. Sproul once said, but often when you're maybe doing something evangelistically, someone will pose the question like, "How can God not bring everyone to heaven?" Or "How can mankind's not that bad?" And R.C. Sproul once said, someone had approached him about an innocent tribesperson in name, X country. And he famously replied, "I'm not concerned with the innocent tribesperson because they don't exist." Right. Romans 1 very clearly says that no one has an excuse for not accepting the revealed glory of the Lord. And so as we face that in our own evangelistic efforts, we need to remember the truth of scripture that tells us that as Cal said, there's no moral neutrality.

[00:44:09:15 - 00:44:30:16]
Coleman
 And that shouldn't make us egg headed or however that might leave us postured when we're talking to people. That should really humble us and recognize that the person we're talking to who doesn't believe in Christ yet is sitting in the same seat we were X amount of time before. And that should sadden us to a certain degree and bring a genuine love and a passion towards our evangelism that they need this promise.

[00:44:30:16 - 00:44:36:14]
Brenton
 It's really good. Yeah, I actually just read that today by Sproul. It's a great commentary. It is.

[00:44:37:22 - 00:44:41:10]
Brenton
 All right, let's finish on this one. This is going way longer than normal, but it's good.

[00:44:42:22 - 00:44:54:01]
Brenton
 Kyle, you broke down the crowd in this passage into three different groups. You said there were unbelievers, there were hidden believers, and then the disciples or believers.

[00:44:55:12 - 00:45:03:18]
Brenton
 I'd like to focus on what you said about the believers. You mentioned that we often struggle with the same things as the two other categories.

[00:45:04:18 - 00:45:20:14]
Brenton
 We can still doubt, we can still hear the truth and do nothing with it. And the glory of things other than Jesus still capture us. Right? So first, could you kind of break down what you meant by these three categories a little bit for us?

[00:45:20:14 - 00:45:28:06]
Kyle
 The three categories in the crowd. So the unbelievers clearly, what we were just talking about, those whose ears were,

[00:45:29:07 - 00:46:04:02]
Kyle
 their eyes were blinded, their hearts were hardened, and they were outright denying what Jesus said. They did not believe it. The middle category, the Bible says they believed, but they did not act on that. They did not confess with their mouth. With their mouth, they did not leave their former life. They didn't leave the synagogue or the things that they loved about the world. They said they did not repent and turn away from anything to Jesus. But they had a mental acknowledgement that what Jesus said was probably true.

[00:46:05:10 - 00:46:22:19]
Kyle
 And I think that's one of the most dangerous places to be, to acknowledge that and then do nothing with it. But then the third category, obviously, is those of us who are following Jesus. We, like the disciples, may be slow to understand at times or slow to believe, but we are hearing His words and we're believing Him and following Him.

[00:46:22:19 - 00:46:50:13]
Brenton
 Yeah. Okay. And we can open this up to whoever, but Kyle, you can start. How should we as believers respond when we see patterns like this come up in our lives? When we kind of see ourselves maybe hearing the truth, but not responding to it, not submitting ourselves to the will of God, or when we just outright doubt, like how do we respond to that?

[00:46:50:13 - 00:48:01:03]
Kyle
 Yeah. I think we need to humbly look at ourselves, like with anything else we notice in our life. Doubt and questioning God comes in a variety of forms. We should interrogate our heart and say, "Is this doubt arising from a legitimate just lack of understanding how this is true, or is it coming from a skeptical or even antagonistic heart?" Our heart can generate questions of God from a point of skepticism or judging God and His character and what He's revealed. And sometimes we ask those questions with Christian language, but they're coming from a rebellious, unbelieving heart. I would say another thing to ask yourself is, "Do I have questions or am I coming with conclusions? Have I already made up my mind that I know better than God, or am I genuinely seeking to see what God is hearing?" I think the crowd here, they had in their mind what they wanted their Messiah to be. And when Jesus didn't display that, that's when they

[00:48:02:04 - 00:48:20:11]
Kyle
 chose to remain in their unbelief. So we need to be good about interrogating our heart, asking other people, "What do you see in me? Am I asking questions humbly, or am I being antagonistic, even towards the words of God?"

[00:48:21:22 - 00:48:51:15]
Kyle
 And then, again, not to be too simplistic, but continue to return to the cross. If this is where God is showing us His glory, He's doing it for a reason. And the war in our hearts is a war for glory. And we may find it hard to understand how we're now gazing on the glory of the Lord, or how we continue to look at the cross, or study the attributes of God, or all the things we've been talking about, how that

[00:48:52:23 - 00:49:05:01]
Kyle
 is exciting when we have YouTube and all the on-demand streaming services, and we've got every activity you can go and do on vacation, and we've got a world at our fingertips.

[00:49:06:08 - 00:49:19:00]
Kyle
 Or we might struggle to understand how that actually solves any problems, but God says it does. Because when our hearts are ruled by desires, things we love, things we value,

[00:49:21:03 - 00:49:58:23]
Kyle
 we can push, you think of it like King of the Hill, you can push that guy off the top for a little bit and change your behavior a little bit. But there's only one King that can come in and take over that King of the Hill and continue to change your life forever. And that's King Jesus. So, continuing to look at Him and in His glory on the cross is the starting point for fixing anything that we're struggling with, an addiction, loving Jesus more than what you're addicted to. Being angry, you gotta love Jesus in His glory on the cross more than you love getting your way.

[00:50:00:18 - 00:50:12:05]
Kyle
 Broken down marriage, you've gotta love Jesus more even than a fixed marriage that you're striving for. Anything that we're struggling with turning the cross is the best place to start.

[00:50:12:05 - 00:50:13:03]
Brenton
 Yeah,

[00:50:14:07 - 00:50:38:17]
Brenton
 I think one thing that sticks out to me there is like, like with anything, you have to start by acknowledging it. And I think it can be hard to acknowledge things like doubt and actually be honest that we're actually struggling with doubt things. And so, I think it's just so important to be humble and to be honest about what we're actually dealing with first and not just try to ignore it away.

[00:50:39:17 - 00:50:42:00]
Brenton
 But you guys got anything to wrap up?

[00:50:43:03 - 00:51:41:13]
Speaker 5
 Just on the same note, I just think it's really important. And Kyle, you did a great job. You got to focus on the cross. And I think of the verse that says, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." You know what I mean? Obviously, we all know that doesn't mean work for your salvation. Where is my heart focus? Is it really on the cross? Is it on Jesus? You know what I mean? We got to believe in Him, not believe about Him. The people here believed about Him. It says they believe, but, there's that word, but in the negative sense. But they weren't ready. So, as James tells us, even the demons believe and tremble. You believe you've got God as one? Big deal. No big... Yeah. So, how many times have we seen people and salvation for them is all about what they can get out of it. You know what I mean? It's like, "Well, I don't want to go to hell. What do I need to do?" You know what I mean? We talk about, we get scared the hell out of them, right?

[00:51:42:21 - 00:52:21:08]
Speaker 5
 But really, "Well, I don't want to go to hell. I don't want to go to heaven. So, yeah, what do I need to do?" And is that genuine? Is that... No, where our focus should be if it's really genuine. It's like, "Whoa, I want to follow you because I love you. I see what you've done for me, Jesus. I want to be with you." That's what our motivation... And if you talked about the doubt thing, Brenton, it's like, "I don't want to put doubt into people's, but I also want to be real." You know what I mean? If you think you're a believer because, "Well, you know what? I've said this prayer and I believe Jesus died for my sins and I believe that I...

[00:52:22:23 - 00:53:24:14]
Speaker 5
 But is it real?" I mean, have you decided to follow Jesus? Have you decided, "You know what? This world has and still is my God." Because if it is, you probably haven't really decided to really follow Jesus. You know what I mean? And I don't want to... But every one of us, if we're not walking with the Lord, if we're loving the glory that comes from man, as it says in this passage right here, more than the Lord glory that comes... I've got to ask myself as I'm working out my salvation, I'm not really a believer. Have I really decided to follow Jesus in everything I do? I might really have always his. You know what I mean? The Bible says you will know them by their fruits. You know what I mean? If I'm sleeping around and I'm doing this and that and the other and just getting drunk every weekend, you know what I mean? The chances are I'm not acting like a believer, probably because I'm not a believer. We know that those things, but it's indicative to do what you... How you...

[00:53:25:18 - 00:53:29:13]
Speaker 5
 You will act like who you are. Yeah.

[00:53:30:19 - 00:53:31:07]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:53:31:07 - 00:54:21:06]
Coleman
 That's good. Yeah, that's a great word. And as you're saying that in quoting scripture, I just would love to hammer home the reality that when we come to things in the Bible that convict us and make us ask these questions or even shy away from them sometimes, I think we need to recognize that God's word is like a holy scalpel to our sin, right? Like it's not going to keep it there and let it not be an issue in our lives. And sometimes if we come to the Bible and it ruffles our feathers, we need to recognize that that's not the Bible's fault, right? We need to be willing to submit to the God's word and see whether it's doubt or despair or drunkenness or whatever, that God's word clearly articulates these things and that's for our benefit. And so if the problem lies somewhere, it's not with God's word. And that's where we get to run back to Lord and forgiveness and trust that his work is enough for us.

[00:54:21:06 - 00:54:34:15]
Brenton
 Yeah. Cool. Well, great conversation today, guys. Kyle, you got time to persuade me into Lord of the Rings. And the irony is not lost on me that I'm like praising C.S. Lewis's work over here and ignoring Tolkien. Yeah.

[00:54:36:15 - 00:54:42:06]
Kyle
 Well, first of all, Tolkien, it was the one who convinced C.S. Lewis to trust the gospel.

[00:54:42:06 - 00:54:45:11]
Brenton
 But Lewis wrote children's books, which is kind of more my speed, I think.

[00:54:45:11 - 00:54:48:04]
Kyle
 Oh, you can handle Lord of the Rings. Yes.

[00:54:49:13 - 00:54:58:13]
Brenton
 All right. Well, thanks, guys. If you do have any questions, feel free to reach out ask at furtherpodcast.com and we'll talk to you next week.