[00:01:22:00 - 00:01:31:10]
Brenton
 Welcome back to Further. I am Britain Grimm. Chris Carr, you're back. Yeah. Welcome back. Feels like it's been a little bit-- I think it has. How many weeks has it been since you've preached?

[00:01:31:10 - 00:01:47:11]
Chris
 Just a couple of weeks. But there was a break before that, too. So it's good to get back into it. It's all time. Quite a stretch here ahead of preaching. So a lot of great stuff coming up.

[00:01:47:11 - 00:02:13:12]
Brenton
 Yeah, good. Well, we're back into the All In mini-series, we're calling it. So can you just kind of give us an update of what's going on with the All In deal? I know you updated us on Fort Madison, which is great. It's cool to see progress there. But what else have you seen kind of out of these last few months since the seven-week series?

[00:02:14:14 - 00:02:31:08]
Chris
 Yeah, I mean, maybe it would be good to just update on the other projects. So we've got kitchen remodels underway at the D'Amville campus. And that will be followed up with a foyer remodel and some other work that's going to be done there.

[00:02:32:12 - 00:02:52:00]
Chris
 Got a new roof that's already gone on at D'Amville, which everybody gets excited about a new roof, right? But yeah, people maybe even missed that. But you are thankful for it when it's raining out, right? And it's just one of those necessary things.

[00:02:53:05 - 00:02:57:02]
Chris
 And so we're thankful that the Lord's already taken care of that, gotten that provided.

[00:02:58:11 - 00:03:07:20]
Chris
 We're hopefully moving forward in Minneapolis and beginning to just consider what the Lord might have in that regard.

[00:03:09:02 - 00:03:15:02]
Chris
 Then hopefully we're going to have a new parking lot being started here just in the next couple of weeks in Burlington,

[00:03:16:13 - 00:03:45:20]
Chris
 which we need. Sunday was-- Man, 8-30 was packed. So that's so exciting to see all the people here in Burlington. And so yeah, that's kind of the projects. I just want to continue to emphasize, though, that this whole journey is not just simply about projects and facilities and all of that. It's about--

[00:03:47:00 - 00:04:24:12]
Chris
 and it's honestly not even about reaching more people. It's also about the people who are already a part of harmony experiencing growth and change and becoming more formed into the image of Christ, as Paul talks about. And that's why we didn't just do a few week series back in the spring where we were just going to talk about money and raising funds. But this is all a part of this literally transformational journey. And so the projects and the financial aspect are important parts of this.

[00:04:26:05 - 00:04:31:21]
Chris
 They certainly are part of what we believe that God has called us to and is seemingly affirming.

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Chris
 But it's more about who we are becoming as a church and as individual followers of Jesus.

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Chris
 So yeah, and we see, as I even mentioned, great fruit in regards to that with a bunch of people being baptized and being added to the membership. And there's the individual stories of people coming to faith and growing and being challenged and sometimes taking the first steps of really being in

[00:05:08:13 - 00:05:09:12]
Chris
 with Jesus.

[00:05:09:12 - 00:05:27:21]
Brenton
 Yeah. Yeah. Well, you had mentioned the baptisms too on Sunday. And yeah, there's a lot going on. And it's cool to see down the road a little bit from that series that things are still moving in that direction. All right, so you brought up an interesting topic this Sunday, spiritual gifts.

[00:05:29:14 - 00:05:32:10]
Brenton
 Lots of different places we could go with this episode.

[00:05:33:21 - 00:05:35:10]
Brenton
 Might not end up where you expect.

[00:05:35:10 - 00:05:43:03]
Chris
 This is another topic we could do an entire podcast just on spiritual gifts. There probably is one out there somewhere. I'm sure there's plenty of them. Yeah.

[00:05:44:06 - 00:05:48:06]
Chris
 May not be ones that we would recommend, but yeah.

[00:05:48:06 - 00:05:49:19]
Brenton
 Let's hold off on this for now.

[00:05:52:08 - 00:05:59:08]
Brenton
 Yeah, so we'll see where we end up with today. And we got next week too. So I do want to start though with verse 10

[00:06:00:19 - 00:06:03:08]
Brenton
 begins with, "as each has received a gift."

[00:06:04:12 - 00:06:09:12]
Brenton
 And your point from this verse was that every believer has received at least one gift.

[00:06:11:00 - 00:06:17:23]
Brenton
 Over the years, there has been a lot of discussion around how to identify gifts that we've been given.

[00:06:19:09 - 00:06:32:05]
Brenton
 You pointed out that the apostles never gave spiritual gift tests, but simply called people to use their gifts. And that was kind of the main thrust of your sermon was we just need to be willing to use what God has given us.

[00:06:33:20 - 00:06:40:19]
Brenton
 But I guess my question is, what role, if any, should spiritual gift tests play today?

[00:06:43:15 - 00:07:01:14]
Chris
 I think they can be helpful in helping us to get an idea of what our gift might be. I would look at them more as categories rather than as an actual, this is my specific gift.

[00:07:02:18 - 00:07:21:11]
Chris
 And so I actually think that as long as we understand them as things that can be helpful in pointing us to what our gift might be, instead of like, OK, I'm going to take this test like anyogram or one or the other.

[00:07:22:15 - 00:07:54:13]
Chris
 I mean, it seems like a different personality test comes out every year. And that's the new hottest one. And oh, that's what I am. And we paint ourselves or somebody else into a box and say that that's what it is. And one of the reasons for this, we'll talk more about it this coming Sunday, is that the gift I really believe is not an actual ability, so to speak. It's actually the gift is the Holy Spirit empowering our,

[00:07:56:02 - 00:08:23:20]
Chris
 in most cases, empowering our natural talents and abilities that God gifted us with when we were born or has developed in us over the course of our life. But it's now being used by the Holy Spirit to actually build up the church and to see the gospel go forward for the glory of Christ. So if you even read that, again, that passage,

[00:08:25:09 - 00:08:34:21]
Chris
 it's only two verses, but there's so much in it, if you really look at it, as each has received a gift, use it to serve one another. So the point is not what gift that you have.

[00:08:36:16 - 00:09:41:22]
Chris
 It's to serve one another so that, as Paul says, and in some of the other passages, Ephesians 4, the body builds itself up, grows and builds itself up in love. And so the Holy Spirit takes those natural abilities and talents that God has given us. It all comes from God. But how the Holy Spirit uses it to build up the body. So we have many different people in our church who are teachers in school, and then they come and use that gift on a Sunday morning, and the Holy Spirit uses it. It's a natural ability that maybe they've even got training in. And I'm thinking of a man here at the Burlington campus who he teaches at SEC. He's a very, from all I hear, he's a very gifted professor.

[00:09:43:01 - 00:10:20:08]
Chris
 That's a natural kind of wiring and ability, and he's been equipped and has education in that. But then here in the church, God, the Holy Spirit uses that natural ability to teach children and sometimes adults. But primarily right now, he's doing it for children. He's a fantastic teacher of children. And the kids are learning the gospel and growing in their faith. And artists, by the way. And artists, by the way. Yeah, and he's saved. And so I don't think, his name's Chris, too. I don't think that Chris, when he became a believer, he got a new gift.

[00:10:22:05 - 00:10:49:04]
Chris
 I believe now he has the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is using his natural gift. That guy gave him, too. It's a gift. It's just a different way. Now, I do think that we see in the New Testament, there are times where the Holy Spirit comes, and he does give believers new gifts. Most of the time, those seem to be temporary, like comes on them for a specific time and purpose.

[00:10:50:10 - 00:10:54:09]
Chris
 Like we see on the day of Pentecost, where now the apostles are speaking in tongues.

[00:10:56:02 - 00:11:22:01]
Chris
 But that was not, in generally, a permanent gift, I don't think. It was a temporary empowerment at that current moment. Most gifts are not that way. Mm-hmm. They are just like, so, you know, they're supernatural empowerment of our natural gifting, if that makes any sense. Yeah.

[00:11:23:14 - 00:11:45:00]
Chris
 And all the gifts, all of it, therefore, sometimes we think of like these healing and speaking in tongues and miracles. Those are supernatural gifts, and then there's the other non-supernatural gifts. That's a wrong way to look at it because they're all supernatural because they're all spirit enabled and spirit empowered.

[00:11:46:03 - 00:12:03:00]
Chris
 So, and so that's where I think the gift tests, like they're very truncated way of looking at a spiritual gift and can be even unhelpful.

[00:12:03:00 - 00:12:11:22]
Brenton
 Well, is one of your concerns that it kind of pigeonholes you? Like you get a response back and you're like, okay, this is the thing that I do now.

[00:12:11:22 - 00:12:17:17]
Chris
 Yeah. Well, so, yeah. And so I also mentioned you like, spiritual gifts are like snowflakes, which I'm sure,

[00:12:19:17 - 00:12:40:03]
Chris
 or fingerprints, maybe a better analogy, or even like our DNA. Like no one has the same, you know, no two people have the same set of DNA. And somebody's gonna write in and say, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, like one of the monos, I got like twins and all that kind of stuff. And just, we can have a discussion about that because they don't even have the same DNA. But,

[00:12:41:04 - 00:12:43:18]
Chris
 and I lost just half of our audience.

[00:12:43:18 - 00:12:44:08]
 (Laughs)

[00:12:44:08 - 00:12:49:00]
Chris
 Our next episode will be on DNA. Like, okay. But,

[00:12:50:01 - 00:13:11:01]
Chris
 we all have our own unique gifting. And what that means is, is like, so you use this gift of, you know, like serving. There's just an almost an infinite number of ways that we can use that gift. Cause we find ourselves in different contexts at different periods in our life,

[00:13:12:02 - 00:13:32:13]
Chris
 in different, you know, ministering to different people at different needs. And we're just different people who are wired differently. And so, the way that you use your gifts and the way that I use my gifts, even if those gifts are the same on the gift chart, they're gonna play out in a different way.

[00:13:32:13 - 00:13:33:05]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:13:35:09 - 00:13:53:21]
Chris
 Yeah. And be used in a different way. So, again, I don't, I think it's a really important point here. And there are definitely people who disagree with me. I just think that the spiritual gifts are primarily the Holy Spirit, empowering natural abilities

[00:13:55:18 - 00:14:16:08]
Chris
 in a way that people are built up. You can know a spiritual gift is in use if people are being built up in their faith and the gospel is going forward. That's the litmus test. It's not exactly what the gift is. It's are people being built up and growing? And is the gospel going forward?

[00:14:17:11 - 00:14:20:15]
Brenton
 Yeah. You kind of already answered my next question.

[00:14:21:17 - 00:14:28:15]
Brenton
 It was about kind of the difference between a natural ability and spiritual gift. But as I was thinking through that this week,

[00:14:30:17 - 00:14:43:08]
Brenton
 atheists can have these same natural abilities, right? And so, the question isn't really, do we gain some new ability?

[00:14:44:10 - 00:14:49:20]
Brenton
 It's more like, how is the Spirit going to use that to build up His church, right?

[00:14:49:20 - 00:15:00:22]
Chris
 Yeah, we should, in my opinion, we should not expect that we are going to get some new spiritual gift or we got a new spiritual gift when we were saved.

[00:15:02:01 - 00:15:06:06]
Chris
 Right. I just don't see any evidence of that

[00:15:07:09 - 00:15:10:12]
Chris
 other than maybe the passages in the book of Acts

[00:15:11:17 - 00:15:20:00]
Chris
 where people, they become believers and they start maybe speaking in tongues.

[00:15:22:07 - 00:15:45:08]
Chris
 And those passages, in the book of Acts, we always got to ask, is this descriptive or prescriptive? And my opinion is, is those passages are very descriptive and that's a unique time in the history of your redemption. That's not to say like those, what people call miraculous gifts, which again, I'm gonna say are no more miraculous than any other gifts.

[00:15:48:15 - 00:15:57:04]
Chris
 Are, you know, I'm not saying that those are not still available today or anything like that. Yeah, so.

[00:15:57:04 - 00:15:59:05]
Brenton
 All right, I won't take the bait.

[00:16:02:06 - 00:16:17:14]
Brenton
 So, in lieu of my next question, since you already answered it, I'm curious what you think some unhelpful teaching has been on this subject because, you know, this is a huge topic and it's one that people really love to talk about.

[00:16:18:16 - 00:16:31:08]
Brenton
 You know, what are some things that maybe we've kind of absorbed without realizing it about spiritual gifts in general that maybe just aren't helpful in the way we think about this topic?

[00:16:32:08 - 00:16:37:22]
Chris
 Oh boy, that's a, that's a wide open question. Yeah, that's a strong enough idea, sorry.

[00:16:40:14 - 00:16:49:17]
Chris
 I, again, I think I've actually hit a lot of it because I think when we have this idea that

[00:16:51:22 - 00:17:15:11]
Chris
 they're not, in most cases, natural abilities of the Holy Spirit and powers, then we start like, it makes it hard to discern at times, like harder to discern, hard to see exactly what our gift is. If we can actually look and say, so we'll talk more about this on Sunday, but how do you just decide what your gift is? Well, one of the things is like, what are you good at?

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Chris
 What do you like to do?

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Chris
 And then the last part is, is what do other people see in you? So those are ability, affinity and affirmation.

[00:17:34:23 - 00:18:09:23]
Chris
 And so sometimes we just make it more complex than it actually has to be. I think another way it goes wrong is where, and Paul actually addresses this in 1 Corinthians 12, is where we have a focus on what maybe considered the more desirable or prominent or gifts that get the more attention. And we might think because we don't have those gifts, like our gift doesn't matter, it's not significant. And Paul actually specifically addresses that in 1 Corinthians.

[00:18:11:02 - 00:18:29:04]
Chris
 And so it's easy for people, and I tried to talk about this on Sunday, where it's to serve, the word there means to minister is like, you look at the pastors, the worship leaders,

[00:18:30:07 - 00:18:35:17]
Chris
 other people in the church and they're like, okay, like, yeah, they're definitely gifted.

[00:18:37:03 - 00:18:49:06]
Chris
 And I think, let me just be honest with you, I hear from time to time, maybe more than from time to time, like you're gifted, appreciated, gifted teaching and these kinds of things.

[00:18:50:17 - 00:19:21:14]
Chris
 But it's always almost as I said, I feel like in a way, I'm more gifted than other people. And in a certain way, like I have more of a certain gift than other people do, that doesn't mean that I'm more gifted. And it doesn't mean that my gift is more important, or my role, so to speak, or place in the church.

[00:19:23:01 - 00:19:26:00]
Chris
 And so I think just people can,

[00:19:27:09 - 00:19:32:13]
Chris
 we can go wrong in regards to valuing some gifts over others.

[00:19:33:20 - 00:19:39:03]
Chris
 Then the other way that we go wrong is at times,

[00:19:41:19 - 00:19:46:18]
Chris
 we use or think of some of the gifts

[00:19:47:19 - 00:19:53:16]
Chris
 in a way that we get focused on actually the gifts

[00:19:55:04 - 00:20:10:17]
Chris
 and instead of what the purpose of the gifts are. And or we use the gifts or pursue the gifts in a non-biblical way. So just, we'll go there.

[00:20:12:01 - 00:20:19:16]
Chris
 You take something like speaking in tongues and there are different positions on that.

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Chris
 And quite honestly, I can respect different positions on it because I think you can make the case on either side

[00:20:33:08 - 00:20:47:21]
Chris
 for them. But I think the challenge we find with people who say, the speaking of tongues is no longer available, I think you have a hard time from scripture,

[00:20:49:16 - 00:20:57:20]
Chris
 giving a passage of scripture that actually says that that is the case. And in fact, there are some passages that indicate that it's actually not the case.

[00:20:59:01 - 00:21:08:03]
Chris
 Now you can make a case from other things, so to speak, than an actual passage.

[00:21:09:18 - 00:21:16:10]
Chris
 And you can look at the Bible and church history and all of that in a certain way.

[00:21:18:03 - 00:21:19:11]
Chris
 On the other hand though,

[00:21:21:03 - 00:21:43:17]
Chris
 and I'm gonna make a pretty broad statement here, but I do think it is largely true, is that oftentimes speaking in tongues is pursued in an unbiblical way and where the actual things that Paul addresses about, says about the way that speaking in tongues is to be used,

[00:21:44:18 - 00:21:45:17]
Chris
 they're not followed.

[00:21:47:12 - 00:21:54:23]
Chris
 Sure. Okay, so I have questions about this topic myself

[00:21:56:06 - 00:22:16:11]
Chris
 and I've been thinking through and we're through for years and years and years, because I just don't believe it's the clearest issue in the Bible. But here's what I do believe is clear, I believe that Paul gives some very clear guidelines for the use of speaking in tongues.

[00:22:17:11 - 00:22:24:14]
Chris
 And that very often today, those guidelines are abused or not followed.

[00:22:26:21 - 00:22:27:10]
Chris
 And so,

[00:22:29:02 - 00:22:51:05]
Chris
 yeah, so I think that my summary on that, to answer your question, your original question from quite a while ago now, is that we just, if we've got to, as always, when it comes to the spiritual, as it is with everything, we have to,

[00:22:54:12 - 00:23:09:03]
Chris
 we have to follow what scripture has to say. And we need to be careful that we don't go further than what scripture says, and that we also then follow what scripture has to say, if that makes sense.

[00:23:09:03 - 00:23:21:15]
Brenton
 Yeah, all right. So to maybe give a little bit of pushback on that then, if we're leaving the opportunity for some of these gifts to still be around like tongues,

[00:23:24:05 - 00:23:31:17]
Brenton
 why would we not at, say in harmony, make space for that? Why would we kind of,

[00:23:33:11 - 00:23:44:20]
Brenton
 for all intents and purposes in our Sunday services where we act as cessationists? And so why would we not leave room for that in our corporate gatherings, if they're possibly still around?

[00:23:45:22 - 00:24:12:03]
Chris
 Yeah, that's a great question. And it's one that I have wrestled through and continue to wrestle through. I think for me, it comes down, maybe it would be helpful to say, we here at Harmony are a way to be able to be able to open to different views on this.

[00:24:14:01 - 00:24:23:19]
Chris
 And so this is not something that we take a strong stand on one way or another, because we believe that this is not something that should divide the body.

[00:24:24:21 - 00:24:37:03]
Chris
 So that's important to say at the beginning. And what I'm gonna say now, I'm speaking not for the church, I'm speaking individually.

[00:24:38:03 - 00:24:42:04]
Chris
 Okay, so I think my answer to that is that

[00:24:43:23 - 00:25:02:09]
Chris
 there's two parts to it. One in the New Testament, especially in Corinth, which is first Corinthians is one of the earliest New Testament letters, if not the first New Testament letter read. So we're talking like 20 years after Jesus's resurrection,

[00:25:03:15 - 00:25:07:12]
Chris
 that they didn't have the Bible,

[00:25:09:18 - 00:25:27:04]
Chris
 like literally they would have any of the New Testament in their language. And Paul actually talks about in first Corinthians 12, and this topic that we're talking about takes a careful study of first Corinthians 12, 13 and 14,

[00:25:28:16 - 00:25:37:10]
Chris
 in conjunction with some things we see in Acts, Ephesians 4 is really, really important. But Paul says in first Corinthians

[00:25:38:15 - 00:26:05:03]
Chris
 that he would rather speak like 10 words in an intelligible language and a thousand words in a tongue. And he's the apostle, and he is declaring the truth of the gospel that we have written down in many of the New Testament letters. And so we have the Bible in our language, and so our need for speaking in tongues in the corporate gatherings of the church is just like,

[00:26:06:14 - 00:26:11:08]
Chris
 how does that benefit us? Why do we need that gift?

[00:26:12:14 - 00:26:48:00]
Chris
 And I believe that some of those miraculous gifts, and we see this being played out in Acts, were given for the foundation of the church. So it's two is like, they didn't have the Bible in their language, and also we're getting the church, started and it is evidence to verify like what the apostles are preaching and teaching and the gospel message. And I'm really making this as simple as possible. There's a lot more to this conversation as you well know.

[00:26:49:07 - 00:26:54:11]
Chris
 And then furthermore, Paul talks about let everything be done decently and in order.

[00:26:55:21 - 00:27:00:21]
Chris
 And again, back, he gives clear parameters for the use of the speaking. In tongues.

[00:27:02:04 - 00:27:49:02]
Chris
 And so for me, like, what would they add to the service? And on the other side, there's the real potential for distraction and disunity and confusion. And we have the full word of God, we have the whole counsel of God, we have it in the English language. And that doesn't mean that perhaps people individually in a private prayer language, and Paul talks in Romans eight about like, sometimes the spirit prays for us with uttering and groanings, like we don't even understand. So like, that's another topic, like I'm opening another can of worms there, but being open to that. And so at the same time then,

[00:27:50:17 - 00:27:58:20]
Chris
 I go and would say in a place where the Bible is not, in a language,

[00:27:59:22 - 00:28:03:08]
Chris
 and there's not a church in that,

[00:28:04:21 - 00:28:06:05]
Chris
 culture context,

[00:28:07:09 - 00:28:27:05]
Chris
 I personally believe we should be not only open, but very open to these gifts still being given so that the church can be founded, the gospel can go forward in a place where it's not yet. So where we have a similar New Testament like situation where there's no Bible and there's no church,

[00:28:28:06 - 00:28:41:16]
Chris
 to a Testament to the truth of the gospel and about Jesus. And there very well are people who are listening today that would disagree and see it otherwise.

[00:28:42:16 - 00:28:52:20]
Chris
 And I'm completely open to being wrong or to other ways of interpreting that, understand it. Just not gonna,

[00:28:54:06 - 00:29:00:06]
Chris
 the only again, when we get down to the place to divide here is when we start using,

[00:29:02:16 - 00:29:10:15]
Chris
 I think when we start using the gifts in a way that is outside the bounds of what we see given to us in the New Testament,

[00:29:12:07 - 00:29:15:20]
Chris
 like we're using them to make money,

[00:29:17:04 - 00:29:20:16]
Chris
 right? Sure, we're using them in a way that brings harm.

[00:29:22:20 - 00:29:32:23]
Chris
 And if then on the other side, if we're using them as a gospel issue where we are raising this issue to the level of, you have to agree with me in order to actually

[00:29:36:16 - 00:29:37:22]
Chris
 be my brother or sister.

[00:29:39:19 - 00:29:46:17]
Chris
 And so it's just another one of the things where I try to navigate the middle of that.

[00:29:47:19 - 00:29:51:22]
Brenton
 Yeah, yeah, okay. I think that's helpful, I think.

[00:29:51:22 - 00:29:56:15]
Chris
 Well, let me just do a little one more thing. I actually, maybe we could just talk about

[00:29:57:17 - 00:30:00:18]
Chris
 healing, prophecy speaking in tongues.

[00:30:01:21 - 00:30:09:02]
Chris
 They kind of all get lumped in together. Let me just talk about my, while we're here and while I'm opening up all kinds of cans of water.

[00:30:11:15 - 00:30:13:11]
Chris
 I honestly believe healing is,

[00:30:14:12 - 00:30:18:03]
Chris
 it's not this like I can heal somebody.

[00:30:19:05 - 00:30:21:22]
Chris
 Anybody has the power to heal anybody other than Christ.

[00:30:23:03 - 00:30:28:20]
Chris
 I believe today in particular, it's about prayer and faith.

[00:30:31:02 - 00:30:41:05]
Chris
 And that people may have the gifts like praying over people and believing and having a great deal of faith and the Lord works through that to heal people.

[00:30:42:12 - 00:30:48:19]
Chris
 And which I don't necessarily think, yeah.

[00:30:50:09 - 00:30:55:23]
Chris
 Maybe all that different from what we actually see in the New Testament, although I,

[00:30:58:00 - 00:30:58:04]
Chris
 yeah.

[00:30:59:11 - 00:31:10:22]
Chris
 Prophecy, I really believe in our day is God spontaneously calling things to mind that are in line with the scripture.

[00:31:12:11 - 00:31:23:00]
Chris
 Like He lays on our heart something that someone or a group of people need to hear in the moment.

[00:31:24:09 - 00:31:30:16]
Chris
 And I actually believe that this, the prophecy is one of those gifts that is a temporary, was a temporary gift.

[00:31:31:21 - 00:31:47:16]
Chris
 And I actually believe that I, this is one of the gifts that I have. And I actually employ it often on Sunday. And anybody who reads my manuscripts and listens to the message, it's obviously we'll see like these are two. Okay.

[00:31:49:14 - 00:31:50:11]
Chris
 We have two different people,

[00:31:51:13 - 00:32:05:13]
Chris
 one writing this and one speaking. And what I'm talking about is that there's times is I'm preaching where I hadn't planned on saying something but the Lord is, the Spirit is like leading me

[00:32:06:14 - 00:32:24:14]
Chris
 to say this because that's what the people need to hear today. And then I just think speaking in tongues is a different story and is a much more, I think complicated subject.

[00:32:24:14 - 00:32:32:18]
Brenton
 Yeah. Would you differentiate prophecy in the New Testament from the Old Testament? Absolutely. Okay. Why?

[00:32:34:03 - 00:32:38:06]
Brenton
 Like what biblical evidence would you have to separate those things?

[00:32:38:06 - 00:32:57:11]
Chris
 Well, I think that we have, well, I think there is some prophecy in the Old Testament that the same as prophecy in the New Testament. And I think we have some prophecy in the New Testament that's different. I think there's different types of prophecy. We have different, we actually have prophets like a guy named Agabus.

[00:32:58:16 - 00:33:03:11]
Chris
 And we find about in Acts who is a prophet

[00:33:04:11 - 00:33:28:15]
Chris
 who makes a prophecy that is mostly right but not completely right. Old Testament prophecy was always true, always keen to bear. And it was something that was, became the word. It was the word of the Lord. And there is New Testament prophecy like in, I think in many ways the apostles are like,

[00:33:30:01 - 00:33:55:01]
Chris
 John and revelation and some of the other. So it was like, that's prophecy, that's scripture. But I think that there is, not think, I'm confident that there are examples of like, there are people who are prophesying, but it's not considered like this is actual word for word that's to be written down and to be considered part of scripture.

[00:33:57:00 - 00:34:04:00]
Chris
 So, yeah. Yeah, I mean, again, another sticky

[00:34:04:00 - 00:34:09:04]
Brenton
 topic. Oh, there's a lot of things. Yep, okay. Well, we got further into this than I expected to.

[00:34:09:04 - 00:34:11:11]
Chris
 Well, that's the name of the podcast right now.

[00:34:12:15 - 00:34:13:22]
Brenton
 That's true. We're living up to it.

[00:34:15:15 - 00:34:30:15]
Brenton
 All right, let's move on to another question. So you said, if you aren't using your gift to serve others, the church suffers loss. Can you unpack that a little more? What are some tangible ways that the church feels loss in that instance?

[00:34:33:17 - 00:34:33:22]
Chris
 Well,

[00:34:35:05 - 00:35:25:11]
Chris
 just try to give a simple illustration. Let's suppose that there's somebody in the body who has a need for encouragement and you have that gift, but you decide to not use it. Well, you may have been the one that God desired to use that to give that people, that person, the encouragement that they needed. And so if you don't use your gift, it doesn't mean somebody else can't use it, but you can use it. You can't use it, but that person may end up being lacking.

[00:35:27:00 - 00:36:10:20]
Chris
 And I guess it really though, and I don't know if that's the greatest illustration, but we all have, I really do believe in the New Testament teachers, we all have a unique gift. And if we have a unique gift, that means we have a unique role in the body to play. And so if we're not playing that role, then the church is by nature. And the analogy that Paul gives, again, first of all, he's 12, is a world body. And he even says it is every part of an eye, every part of hand, every, you know, like, and so his point is, is like, we have different parts to play. And if you don't play your part, the body is not gonna be as healthy as it could be.

[00:36:12:20 - 00:36:13:01]
Chris
 So,

[00:36:14:10 - 00:36:21:22]
Chris
 and from our human perspective, it might look like if I don't use my gifts, I'm not gonna be missed.

[00:36:23:00 - 00:36:53:23]
Chris
 And that's the human perspective. We have to take God's perspective. And God says like, I had a way that your gift was going to be used to build up the body. And if it's not used, then the body is in some way, suffering loss. And the thing is we may not, we may see it, but we oftentimes I don't think see it where the church could actually be grown. And I think the perfect way for us to think about this is to see all of the hurt

[00:36:56:16 - 00:37:11:22]
Chris
 and all the way that people are struggling and all of whether it's marriages that are falling apart or people who are struggling with addiction, depression, loneliness is a huge, like a huge, huge issue. It doesn't get talked about a lot.

[00:37:13:14 - 00:37:25:14]
Chris
 And when we use our gifts, all of those things can be more fully helped,

[00:37:26:22 - 00:37:30:16]
Chris
 healed, ministered to, cared for.

[00:37:31:19 - 00:37:51:19]
Chris
 And so we look at like, and we like, hey, the world and the church a lot of times is, it's really struggling. And we can fail to recognize that one of the reasons I really truly believe it is, is because we are depending upon a handful of people,

[00:37:54:01 - 00:38:00:00]
Chris
 or a handful of gifts to minister to those people.

[00:38:02:07 - 00:38:29:10]
Chris
 So I guess it's beginning, you begin and say, what is, again, I'm gonna just take it back, what does the Bible actually say is true? Each person has a gift. You can't argue with that. People do, but you can't, you have a gift. You're to use it to serve, can't argue with that. And we can also argue the Bible says that if you're not using your gift, like in some way the church is suffering loss.

[00:38:30:17 - 00:38:43:14]
Chris
 So we start there and then when we say, okay, I'm gonna accept what the word has to say, I don't think it's a big step to say, oh, okay, this makes sense. Like if everybody was actually using their gifts

[00:38:44:22 - 00:39:04:10]
Chris
 and we were, so we'll look at this on Sunday, speaking is one who speaks the oracles, like if everybody who had a speaking if was speaking the word of God, well, what does the word of God do? It changes people. It grows people. If everybody is serving as one that serves with the strength that God provides her, that strength word, the connection,

[00:39:05:19 - 00:39:12:16]
Chris
 we're serving and building one another up and encouraging one another, well, of course the church is gonna be in better shape. Yeah.

[00:39:14:04 - 00:39:14:10]
Chris
 Right?

[00:39:15:10 - 00:39:17:17]
Chris
 And it's just like in the body,

[00:39:18:18 - 00:39:21:17]
Chris
 the human body, it is, you know,

[00:39:23:01 - 00:39:56:21]
Chris
 there are parts of all our bodies that don't work as it should. And some of those don't make a big impact and some of them make a huge impact. And so sometimes there are gifts that if they're not used, they make a bigger impact than others do. But the analogy is, is like if a part of your body is not working while you feel it, like you take your big toe, like we might think it's not a big deal and I'm really insignificant, you stub or you break your big toe,

[00:39:58:15 - 00:40:05:04]
Chris
 you're gonna know. That's all you can think about. Right? And so, yeah,

[00:40:06:04 - 00:40:26:20]
Chris
 going on here, but it's a much bigger topic than I think that we realize. And this is the final thing on all of this and we're probably way over time. But I think all of that stuff we talked about about the so-called supernatural gifts, right?

[00:40:28:00 - 00:40:31:19]
Chris
 It easily distracts us

[00:40:33:08 - 00:40:53:02]
Chris
 from the most important aspect of all of this, which is you have a gift and you need to use it to serve one another, to serve the body so the body is spilled out. And so we may be confused about that whole, again, the sign gifts, and we may have disemference of opinion,

[00:40:54:15 - 00:41:01:01]
Chris
 but let's not allow that to distract us from the core principle, it's their gift that God's given us.

[00:41:01:01 - 00:41:05:17]
Brenton
 Yeah, okay. If I can stretch this episode a little more, I wanna get to one more question.

[00:41:07:08 - 00:41:08:18]
Chris
 Okay, you're the-- Sorry, everybody.

[00:41:09:18 - 00:41:10:11]
Brenton
 No, it'll be good.

[00:41:10:11 - 00:41:11:05]
Chris
 Break it up in two.

[00:41:11:05 - 00:41:24:05]
Brenton
 So this was actually a question that came in. I had a phone call with a member here and honestly, the whole conversation was just really helpful to think through it. And so he had a specific question.

[00:41:27:05 - 00:41:31:08]
Brenton
 Essentially, his question is, is harmony willing or,

[00:41:32:22 - 00:41:50:11]
Brenton
 yeah, we'll just say that, to create new avenues for people's gifting. So for example, say someone has a desire or feels called to preach or teach, how can the church come alongside that person to allow them to do this, right? So not every avenue is just gonna be open,

[00:41:51:17 - 00:41:57:03]
Brenton
 but maybe alongside that, what avenues are available in harmony for members to pursue?

[00:41:59:21 - 00:42:02:08]
Chris
 To pursue a specific gift or gift in general.

[00:42:02:08 - 00:42:05:23]
Brenton
 For this example, if they feel called to teach,

[00:42:07:09 - 00:42:09:10]
Brenton
 what should that person do?

[00:42:10:18 - 00:42:13:22]
Brenton
 What's the first step? What's the next step to pursue that here?

[00:42:13:22 - 00:42:33:12]
Chris
 Well, yeah, I mean, I wanna step back and say that the affirmation component is important. It's like just because we believe that we have a gift doesn't actually mean that we do. And I think it's part of the role of the church

[00:42:35:10 - 00:42:49:05]
Chris
 and not just the leaders, but starts maybe, or with the leaders is to help to affirm like people do have a certain gift or a certain way.

[00:42:51:06 - 00:43:26:04]
Chris
 I think the first step is like in your example, if you have a gift of teaching to have a conversation with some of our pastors, I don't know, wanted to, is like, okay, I think I had this gift, can you help me to discern that? And what are the avenues and how do I get opportunities to be able to use that? Now, when it comes to teaching, there are qualifications that come into play in regards to that, that don't necessarily come into play in other use of other gifts.

[00:43:27:13 - 00:44:59:16]
Chris
 And I'm talking about character qualifications as well. So I think the first step is to speak with a pastor in regards to that. I think I would also wanna say that when it comes to the use of many gifts, you don't have to have an official ministry of the church that they have to fit in or ministry doesn't have to be started. You can just use your gift, whether it's inside or outside of the church. And one of the things that can get lost here is it's not just using your gift inside the church, but it's outside the church, whether it's believers that aren't part of our church or to use your gift to reach and minister to unbelievers, like evangelism is a great example in regard to that. So I would caution people who are thinking, hey, the church needs to create a place for me to use my gift. Yes, we do try to provide opportunities and avenues. And I really think there is in the ministry of harmony, a place for everybody to use their gifts, but it may be that you just need to start using gifts on your own to like, again, it's not about the gifts, it's like, how do I serve other people? And I didn't mention this earlier. There's another thing that you can do to decide there to find out what your gift is, where are their needs?

[00:45:01:05 - 00:45:34:04]
Chris
 Like there's a need and like, okay, God, I'm gonna go make an effort to try to meet this. And if we just really had a more others orientation, I think that's a real temptation, especially in our culture today is like, we have a me orientation, like this is like, what am I getting out of it? What am I gonna get? Even what am I gonna, how am I gonna use my gift instead of like, okay, there's other people, how do I go and more into them?

[00:45:36:14 - 00:45:43:12]
Chris
 So yeah, I mean, again, the speaking gift, let's talk pastors, be humble and open is like that,

[00:45:44:15 - 00:45:54:19]
Chris
 how is that actually gonna come to play? And what is that gonna look like? But outside of those speaking gifts, the serving gifts, like just,

[00:45:55:22 - 00:46:07:18]
Chris
 you can jump into a ministry, there's lots of them, or you can just say, hey, here I go, I'm gonna look for people to minister to and use my ability and my natural abilities to be able to do that.

[00:46:07:18 - 00:46:47:04]
Brenton
 Yeah, no, I appreciate your comments on just, we do wanna guard teaching here at Harmony, right? So like the New Testament clearly lays out guidelines for those roles in the church. And, you know, ministering outside of the church should still be done under the authority of your elders to some extent, right? So we don't wanna just go rogue there, but yeah, there are plenty of opportunities here at the church. And I think you're right, go start meeting with pastors and see what next steps are in that instance.

[00:46:48:16 - 00:46:48:23]
Brenton
 All right,

[00:46:50:03 - 00:46:54:00]
Brenton
 cool, well, we went a long time. These episodes are getting longer, I think.

[00:46:56:05 - 00:46:58:16]
Brenton
 It'll be shorter next week, I'm sure. Yeah, I bet.

[00:46:59:17 - 00:47:03:08]
Brenton
 All right, yeah, thanks for listening. If you do have any questions,

[00:47:04:12 - 00:47:08:07]
Brenton
 ask at furtherpodcast.com. Thanks, Chris, we'll talk to you next week.

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