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Speaker 2
 Welcome back to Further. I am Brenton Grimm. How's it going, Chris?

[00:03:25:00 - 00:03:31:20]
Speaker 1
 Going pretty good. I finally got my deer up here on the wall. You like it?

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Speaker 2
 I literally did not see that until right now. Come on.

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 (Laughter)

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Speaker 2
 Maybe I did see it, but it just kind of-- Yeah, it just blended in. Par for the course for you here. Yeah, that looks good. How many points you got up there? There's 14. What am I supposed to ask about?

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Speaker 2
 Let's just move on.

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Speaker 2
 Got it. All right. So John 14 is packed with a lot of things. So this passage in particular felt dense.

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Speaker 2
 So what are some things that as you were preparing, you wish you could have talked about, that you didn't have time, or just some-- what are some extras out of this that we didn't have time for on Sunday?

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Speaker 1
 Yeah, well, we certainly could talk more about the Trinity. And we maybe even will get to that a little bit more this week. I'm not quite sure exactly where we're headed, because we're going to be back in the passage again and focusing, I know for sure, on what Jesus says, not once, but twice. If you love me, you'll keep my commandments.

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Speaker 1
 And so what's the relationship between love and obedience?

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Speaker 1
 And though Jesus talks directly in its own length as well about his relationship with the Father, which is just a continual theme that he returns to over and over again, and will do so in chapters 15, 16, and 17 as well. And now he's brought the Holy Spirit into the mix, so to speak, there too. I believe he wasn't already in the mix, but just at least in terms of his conversation.

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Speaker 1
 So there's really-- we could talk at length about all of those various matters and just the implications that they have for us.

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Speaker 1
 I,

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Speaker 1
 at some point, want to talk more about the Trinity and what maybe the practical ramifications are for us about the relationship between the members of the Godhead, something I think that is grossly sometimes understudied and as a result, grossly misunderstood,

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Speaker 1
 about how significant those relationships are there. That relationship, relationships, it's even hard to know how to describe that and how they really relate to us and how we are called to relate not only to God, but to one another.

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Speaker 1
 And yeah, so we'll see if we have time to get to it this week. If not, hopefully we'll be able to explore it some more as we go through 15, 16, and 17, and days ahead.

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Speaker 2
 Right.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah, OK.

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Speaker 2
 So you quoted John 16.7, skipping ahead a little bit, which says, "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away. For if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you."

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Speaker 2
 Your point here was that a lot of believers today have a wrong or incomplete view of the Spirit's role in our lives. And that can cause us to undervalue the significance of the Spirit's indwelling us.

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Speaker 2
 So this line of it's to your advantage that Jesus goes away and the Spirit comes. Why do you think that that's maybe kind of hard to believe that we're better off with the Spirit indwelling us than if Jesus was sitting right next to us?

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Speaker 1
 Well, I think it's always easier to grab hold of the physical than the spiritual, right? I mean, you can see the visible and the invisible, so to speak.

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Speaker 1
 And I think it's just there seems to be some mystery to us, probably quite a bit more than there should be about the Holy Spirit.

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Speaker 1
 And I think that it goes back to kind of our lack of really understanding what the Bible has to say and the great degree about which the Bible has to say, and Jesus in particular, about the Holy Spirit. I think another reason, and I mentioned this on Sunday briefly, but for many of us maybe in churches, film from churches like Harmony or from Harmony, you know, like we may have a reaction to the excesses of the charismatic movement. And there are some significant excesses there. And I'm not trying to paint with a broad stroke because there are some very, very godly people who come from that background. And there are things that we certainly can learn from them and can grow in regards to that.

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Speaker 1
 But one of the downsides at times is we just react and like we get concerned that we maybe would go too far there. And I think that it's just the Holy Spirit,

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Speaker 1
 you know, one of the commands in the New Testament is to yield to the Holy Spirit, right? And so I think that's scary for a lot of people because that's when we're truly giving up control.

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Speaker 1
 And we don't, I don't know that any of us, I don't like to give up control. And so it's maybe we feel safer or more in control than I'm going to, "Oh, okay. I'm going to actually start listening. It's tempting to listen to Him and allowing Him to lead me." So, you know, Paul talks about englations, about walking in the Spirit. There's walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit. And on the surface, you know, we might want to say, "Oh yeah, we should walk in the Spirit." And because it's going to produce the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, okay, all those things great and wonderful. But then what about how the Spirit works in other ways in terms of where He may be leading us to do things that we would prefer not to do, whether it's to share our faith or to have a conversation where we may have to confront people or deal with a difficult situation or where we have to confess our sin, like that's a big one. The Holy Spirit, you know, comes and we're going to see when we get to chapter 16, He comes to convict the world of sin. So, He's the one who convicts us and we don't like,

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Speaker 1
 who wants to be convicted of sin?

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Speaker 1
 And so, like, yeah.

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Speaker 1
 And of course, our flesh has a natural reaction to that, right? Our flesh doesn't want, it's the opposite of submitting to the Spirit. So, I think there's a whole host of reasons.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah.

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Speaker 1
 Yeah.

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Speaker 2
 No, I think even if it's just as simple as, you know, it is easier to kind of visually, physically, you know, interact with something than... Well, and that's something we're going to get into a little later is the,

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Speaker 2
 I think the sometimes conflation of our own emotions with the Spirit's calling or whatever moving in our life.

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Speaker 1
 Yeah, and maybe getting a little bit ahead here, so if you want to come back to it, I think for like, if we consider the disciples, what they actually experienced in the Spirit coming is not that they knew Jesus less, but they actually knew Him more.

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Speaker 1
 And though He wasn't physically present with them, they had a deeper, closer relationship with Him once He was gone than they did

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Speaker 1
 before they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And I think if we can begin to think of it in terms of that is that this is actually the, the Spirit is the way that we experience the relationship with Jesus.

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Speaker 1
 And so, the great thing in heaven is that we will have Jesus physically with us and the Spirit inside of us. So, we don't get both in the here and now, but what Jesus says is the better part to have now is not me physically with you, it's the Spirit with you and inside of you.

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Speaker 2
 Right.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah. Okay, so you covered a lot of things there. I want to drill down into some of them. One of the things you mentioned was kind of the two contrasting extremes of those who almost obsess over the Spirit and then the other side of that, which is those who kind of ignore Him.

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Speaker 2
 What do you think historically has caused these two views to develop in the church?

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Speaker 1
 Well, ever since the early centuries of the church, there's been this false teaching of Gnosticism.

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Speaker 1
 And so, that started off, it depends upon who you read, but John actually may have very well been addressing that in his first, second and third letter. So, it could have been as early as the late first century.

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Speaker 1
 And so, it's a little bit of the dualism, separation of body and spirit. And spirit is good and the body is evil.

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Speaker 1
 And this kind of, we want to have these spiritual out of body kind of experiences and it's kind of in the mysticism and all of that. And so, and that just,

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Speaker 1
 I mean, that's still very much present today. For the last 2000 years, it's been one of the primary really heresies that the churches had to confront and deal with.

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Speaker 1
 I think another reason for today and those who obsess over them is that we have people who have seen this as an opportunity to gain wealth and fame.

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Speaker 1
 And that's where we have the abuses of the charismatic, the one end of the charismatic movement.

[00:14:27:03 - 00:14:32:15]
Speaker 1
 And so, I think we always have an overreaction,

[00:14:33:16 - 00:14:43:06]
Speaker 1
 right? Almost always. And so, there's a good reaction to both of those things, but then we can also go too far and like not,

[00:14:44:13 - 00:14:48:17]
Speaker 1
 we can be afraid really, like of any kind of

[00:14:50:06 - 00:15:13:21]
Speaker 1
 emotional expression or any type of spiritual, that's not grounded in the really the physical or like, so we, I read one passage last week that said, he grew up kind of believing in the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Bible.

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Speaker 1
 And like, yeah, we affirm that the Holy Spirit is a member of the Trinity and equally God and all, but what we really, really value is the word. And that's, I think, in a reaction to the other side of the equation.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah. And I think one thing you hit on was the interaction between the Spirit and us reading the word. I mean,

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Speaker 2
 one line in this passage is Jesus calls him the Spirit of truth. And I think it is common for us to kind of equate the Spirit with our feelings and not that our feelings have nothing to do with that by any means, but like he is called the Spirit of truth.

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Speaker 2
 His role is to bring clarity and not confusion, right? And so, I think, to some extent, as these different denominations have gone their ways and gone too far or not far enough, like, I think it's a lot of it's pushed back to almost a cultural view of what the Spirit is.

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Speaker 1
 Yeah. I mean, we live in a world today, like, this is maybe not commonly understood, but we live in a very religious or at least a very spiritual day.

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Speaker 1
 For sure.

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Speaker 1
 And there are very few people who are not some type of have some type of spirituality.

[00:16:49:22 - 00:16:59:06]
Speaker 1
 Much of it's not Orthodox Christianity spirituality, but there's a lot of spirituality going on today. And yeah.

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Speaker 2
 So, maybe you probably answered this in your sermon, but maybe you'll just ask for kind of a concise view on this. What does healthy biblical dependence on the Holy Spirit actually look like in the life of a believer?

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Speaker 1
 Yeah,

[00:17:16:11 - 00:17:22:08]
Speaker 1
 that's a great question. And I think in some ways, I'm still searching that out for myself.

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Speaker 1
 I think one answer to that question includes listening,

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Speaker 1
 which, you know, when we talk about the Bible, and it's not just, and I didn't have time to get into this on Sunday, but it's not simply just reading the Word or even studying the Word, but actually lingering over it to allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you. And what I mean by that is to give you understanding and to help you to know exactly where it applies to your life.

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Speaker 1
 And so, it's not simply about, let me read this passage or chapter of the Bible and then, okay, I checked that off the list. You know, I did my quiet time today. I think that that's where we get a lot of time, but it's actually,

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Speaker 1
 as the Psalmist talks about, be still and know that I am God.

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Speaker 1
 And so, how do we actually, I'm actually a fan, not of reading large chunks of Scripture for your devotional time or whatever, but actually reading rather small sections and kind of lingering over that to hopefully allow the Holy Spirit to really, okay, what does this really, really mean? And given the place that I'm at in my life and what I'm struggling with or what I've got in front of me, what is the Holy Spirit really, what was He leading me to know, to understand, to do, to change? Like in all of that. And I think one of the greatest enemies of our current day is the busyness and the like, we're going, going, going, going, going, going. And the reason that's the one, if not the greatest enemy, is that we just don't have time to listen to what the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding and directing.

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Speaker 1
 And in addition to that,

[00:19:35:03 - 00:19:37:19]
Speaker 1
 yeah, well, maybe I'll just stop at that point.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah. Well, I guess to keep going with that a little bit, I did have a question in here about that, that, you know, the Spirit's role of helping us read Scripture for someone who, who kind of does struggle to, to read Scripture and to find, you know, proper application for their life, or it just feels dry in general.

[00:20:07:16 - 00:20:19:06]
Speaker 2
 Like how, how can understanding this about the Spirit, how can that kind of reshape our view of how we read Scripture and what, what should that change in the way that we read Scripture?

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Speaker 1
 Well, I may not directly answer your question on this, but as I talked about a little bit on something, this is why the church is so important. And I don't mean just like the corporate gatherings where the preaching and the singing and all of that, but like having other people, like we're, we're meant to actually in many cases study the Bible together.

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Speaker 1
 And so if you're, if you're new in studying the Bible, or you've never learned how to do that, or been maybe taught or discipled about how to do that, I think one of the first steps is, is just, you know, how can you get in, in this community where some people that can, you can do it, do it with so they can help show you how to do it. You can, you can learn how to do it. I think it can, you know, it can be very simple for some, someone like you, you or me have been studying the Bible for a majority of our lives. And, and, and I who do it, you know, as my vocation and you do it pretty big part of what you do too, is just to think, okay, well, just, you know, you just need to start, if you read the Bible and listen to the Holy Spirit will speak to you. And, and yeah, I believe that in general is true, but there are some things that you can learn about how to actually study the Bible that can be super helpful. Like, okay,

[00:21:50:12 - 00:22:32:02]
Speaker 1
 like what are the different genres of the Bible and how do you understand the difference between a pistol and a, and a Psalm and, and like, and how do we do all that? So I think that's the, you know, when people are saved, we see this in the New Testament, they were immediately incorporated into the church. And yes, that's in the big C church, like you become a part of the body of Christ, but they also became incorporated in a local assembly. Yeah. Right. And so, so what do they do in that? Well, they're, they're getting together. We see in Acts chapter two, like getting together on a regular basis, like a good day by day actually, and, and they're studying and all, and they're doing it together. I don't really think Bible study in, in, in most,

[00:22:33:09 - 00:22:49:13]
Speaker 1
 in most ways is meant to be like a lone ranger, a solo activity. Yes, yes, for sure. That I strongly encourage that. But especially if you're just getting, getting started, I think that that's a, that can be a hard road to hoe. For sure.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah. Yeah. So there's definitely practical sides to it. We need to, you know, get better at, at studying. Maybe that's a plug for community groups too.

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Speaker 1
 Well, there's all kinds of things, but yeah, sure.

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Speaker 2
 You, you talked about the, the depth of meaning and the word paraclete. You said it can be translated as advocate, comforter, counselor,

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Speaker 2
 friend.

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Speaker 2
 Which of these roles, like if we just take those four, do you think that believers most often overlook?

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Speaker 2
 Which one, which one's hardest?

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Speaker 1
 It's the one of those questions I think I'll just turn back on you because I'm not sure how to answer that question.

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Speaker 1
 Can I say all of the above? I don't know.

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Speaker 1
 I actually think we, we, we may be most,

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Speaker 1
 most logically think actually of the advocate in terms of like, because it, it can, it may be the most, one that would make us the most comfortable. The other ones, depending

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Speaker 1
 upon who you are and your personality, maybe the more like he's a friend, like what, okay.

[00:24:05:16 - 00:24:16:02]
Speaker 1
 What, what is, if you've never had a good friend, well then you're not like, that's not even quite, but if you, if you had a good friend, you know,

[00:24:17:12 - 00:24:38:11]
Speaker 1
 there's a specific, man I was thinking about this week is like, he's a, he's a guy who gives me, he encourages me, but he's also a guy who will confront me. He's a guy who asks like how I'm doing with a whole variety of things and not just like general, how you doing? But it's like, he'll ask me about specific things in my life.

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Speaker 1
 And, and that's what a good, that's what a good friend is. It's not just somebody who's going to like agree with you and say, Hey, you're great. Yeah, they'll, they'll build you up, but they're also going to say, Hey, I don't like what's going on there. And then they'll also just be willing to ask the tough questions.

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Speaker 1
 But I think that that's especially probably a lot of men like struggle with that. Men probably struggle with the comforter thing. Like I need somebody to come like, we don't, we don't necessarily like that.

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Speaker 1
 And maybe the one we, we also would be more comfortable with too is counselor. Okay. Yeah. I need, because like, I need some, I need some advice here.

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Speaker 1
 And we love that, you know, that spirit of truth thing, I think that's the one we can resonate, right? Like, okay. Yeah. We love, this is very true. It's great. We love the truth.

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Speaker 1
 But there's, there's more to it than, than simply telling us the truth.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah. Yeah. I would say the, the friend one is maybe the most abstract to me. Right. Like it's, I guess it can a lot of times feel like a long distance friend, right? Like you gotta, you gotta put effort into it, into this relationship. And yeah, I think that it just being like we talked about earlier, like the physical versus spiritual physical is right in front of my face, right? And I can, it's easier.

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Speaker 1
 Yeah. Well, that actually makes me think of something else that I could have talked about on Sunday that, and it directly relates here. What we, I think we need to try to understand the Holy Spirit as, you know, in His role in our lives is He's just continuing the work of Jesus.

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Speaker 1
 Right. Like, so, so all of those things advocate comfort at counselor, friend, like, like, we know from Isaiah that he's wonderful counselor, right?

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Speaker 1
 We, we know that he is a comfort, like, encourager. We know, like Jesus is going to say, as we get later on here in the upper room discord, I'm no longer calling you servants, I'm calling you friends. Like He's our friend. We sing what a friend we have in Jesus. We talked about an advocate. Jesus is our advocate on that. What we need to understand is, is like,

[00:26:57:13 - 00:27:00:12]
Speaker 1
 and this is amazing, you get to Acts and,

[00:27:01:13 - 00:27:20:09]
Speaker 1
 so Acts is the companion volume to the gospel of Luke. So, so Luke wrote both Luke and Acts, and it says in verse one of Acts one, Theophila, he's talking to this guy named Theophilus, and he says, Hey Theophilus, I'm, I'm want to continue to tell you all that Jesus did.

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Speaker 1
 In other words, Acts is Jesus continued, but Jesus isn't around anymore. And what we see happening is the whole, the Holy Spirit coming. So Jesus continues His work through the Holy Spirit. And so all those things, you know, in somewhat of a different way, but the same ministry that Jesus had while He was here is now the Holy Spirit is carrying on that ministry to us today.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah, that's good. That's a good way to look at it.

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Speaker 1
 So, you think it's like, they're, this is where the Trinity, like they're three and one, and, and like they're, they are different persons and they do have different roles, but they're all working together for the same purpose and toward the same ends. Yeah.

[00:28:13:07 - 00:28:25:05]
Speaker 2
 Yeah. And I think that, that came out really clearly in this passage too of, you know, these kind of continuing this relationship through, through the Spirit. So that's good. I want to skip down to verse 27.

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Speaker 2
 It says, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you, not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid."

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Speaker 2
 Jesus seems to be comparing two different types of peace here, right? So the, the kind that the world offers and the kind that He offers. What, what is He saying here?

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Speaker 2
 Like, what, what is the difference between these two? Yeah.

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Speaker 1
 Well, on the one hand, Jesus offers an objective peace and the world offers a subjective peace.

[00:29:08:12 - 00:29:28:15]
Speaker 1
 In other words, the objective peace is the Romans 5.1. Therefore, being justified by faith, we now have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. So that, that's a status situation. Like, you have it, you're, you're at peace with Him. You're not at war with Him. You're not on opposite sides anymore.

[00:29:30:11 - 00:29:40:17]
Speaker 1
 But on the other hand, I think in the context here, and John 4, Jesus is actually talking more about the sense that we,

[00:29:41:21 - 00:29:54:06]
Speaker 1
 the world gives peace or comfort in terms of things, you know, material objects. They provide you with peace because you're going to be comfortable or you,

[00:29:55:06 - 00:30:02:19]
Speaker 1
 yeah, or whatever, but temporary. And Jesus provides a peace that He intends for

[00:30:03:22 - 00:30:15:23]
Speaker 1
 nothing to be able to take away, even trials and difficulties. And like the world, the peace that the world offers is a peace that is, is again, subjective in the sense that it comes and goes.

[00:30:17:09 - 00:30:38:02]
Speaker 1
 Based upon your circumstances and Jesus offers a peace that we can have even in the most difficult of circumstances. Now, this doesn't mean that we always actually experience it, but what He offers that to us, like that we have the potential to have it. The world, the world cannot offer a peace

[00:30:39:18 - 00:31:07:04]
Speaker 1
 to us. Literally, Jesus is talking about, I think in some ways, it's talking about feelings like you can be at peace even if your world is kind of falling apart, which is what's happening. Which is what's happening. Yes, which is what's happening. And I think we should take encouragement because Jesus says this to them and they didn't actually experience it for a while. True. True.

[00:31:07:04 - 00:31:20:09]
Speaker 2
 Yeah. You had mentioned at the beginning of your sermon that it's so good that we get to be able to be a fly on the wall for this conversation. But like this, this part in particular feels like, you know, He's saying, I'm leaving.

[00:31:22:08 - 00:31:38:09]
Speaker 2
 Like I can't imagine what, what their feelings are at that point. And He says, "Peace I leave with you." Like He says, "Let not your hearts be troubled, even though I'm going away, you'll have the spirit." Right? So it's, yeah.

[00:31:38:09 - 00:32:04:22]
Speaker 1
 Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. Let me, let me give, get in any other questions? No, we can wrap it there. Well, let me, let me give the final word of encouragement to everybody. I think we, we should take deep, deep encouragement that these guys just are, are a complete, you know, wreck at this point.

[00:32:06:04 - 00:32:37:00]
Speaker 1
 And they again will either betray Him, actually Judas is gone at this point, but they'll definitely, one of them is in the process literally as Jesus saying these words of betraying Him, Peter's going to die and the rest of them are going to be scattered. Jesus says to their homes, like they're, they're going to leave Him in the dust. And yet He still gives them promises as Holy Spirit and then gives them as Holy Spirit, which, which is another testament that we are saved by grace, not by, not by our works.

[00:32:38:06 - 00:32:40:19]
Speaker 1
 And, you know, like we don't get the spirit

[00:32:42:04 - 00:32:45:21]
Speaker 1
 and the spirit doesn't work in our lives because of what we do.

[00:32:47:00 - 00:33:07:15]
Speaker 1
 He works in our lives because we have a gracious heavenly Father and a gracious Savior, a gracious advocate in, in heaven. And that's where I ended the sermon. Like how is the Holy Spirit able to do what He does? Not because of something that we do, but because of what Jesus has done and continues to do today.

[00:33:07:15 - 00:33:18:21]
Speaker 2
 Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, we'll wrap it there. Thanks, Chris. If you guys have any questions, ask at furtherpodcast.com and we'll talk to you next week.