Welcome back to Further. I am Brenton Grimm. Chris Carr, how are you doing?

[00:02:24:06 - 00:02:54:07]
Speaker 1
 I'm doing pretty good. A lot going on. You may have heard I'm in the process of moving. Not just me. My wife and I and son are moving. So I think it's clear. And not moving out of the area just locally. So 14 years is a lot of stuff to accumulate in one place. So yeah, it's exciting. But it's also a lot of plates spinning right now. For sure.

[00:02:54:07 - 00:02:57:17]
Speaker 2
 Yeah, I guess with that, I heard you have a work anniversary coming up.

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Speaker 1
 So 14 years here at Harmony. Yeah, on Thursday. So it's hard to believe. And I think of it this way, is there are kids who weren't even in school yet who've graduated or like freshman in college? Which-- Yeah. Yeah. And I was actually in my 30s when I came here. Just a little bit older than you. Couple of years older than you. So you feel young, don't you?

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Speaker 2
 I've always been young.

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Speaker 1
 Yeah.

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Speaker 2
 Right.

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Speaker 1
 Forever young. Is that a movie or something? Yep.

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Speaker 2
 Yep. All right. Yeah, so we'll hop back into John 14 here. You opened by saying that the relationship between love and obedience might be the number one issue Christians struggle with today. And you said not just theologically, but practically.

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Speaker 2
 First of all, when you say theologically, what do you mean by that as being one of the main issues?

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Speaker 1
 Well, I think it's just--

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Speaker 1
 there's a couple of different ways we can approach it. But one way is to understand what is the role of the law in the life of a Christian.

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Speaker 1
 So we're talking God's law.

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Speaker 1
 A lot of times people think of it simply as expressed in the Old Testament. But it goes further than that. And so what role does the law actually play? So I think that there's a lot of, at times, confusion in regards to that.

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Speaker 1
 I think in terms of, again, the faith and works debate that's been going on, at least since the time of--

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Speaker 1
 we know Luther addressed that. So certainly 500 years or more. And I'm sure it obviously dates back to that. And we have, obviously,

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Speaker 1
 we have the book of Romans and Galatians. And then on the other side, so to speak-- or at least people think this way is the book of James, the faith without works is dead. And Romans and Galatians and other parts says it's like,

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Speaker 1
 to him who trusts, who has faith without works, without doing anything, so to speak, that's where we talk about justification by faith alone.

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Speaker 1
 And so there's just a lot of different--

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Speaker 1
 it can be really difficult for us to truly understand theologically where we should come down on that, where the word of God comes down on that.

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Speaker 2
 So when you refer to the law, when you started that out, are you saying the understanding--

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Speaker 2
 the proper understanding is to see the law as a mirror, so we can see our sin. And so you'd see that as a grace to us and meant to drive us to love.

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Speaker 1
 Yeah, I mean, there's, again, different ways to come at it here. But the law is not opposed to the gospel, right? And it's not opposed to-- the law and grace are not opposed to one another. And that's, I think, oftentimes people theologically

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Speaker 1
 can really wrestle to understand that.

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Speaker 2
 Why do you think that there has been so much misunderstanding of those two things over-- I mean, you go back 500 years. What do you think drives a lot of that misunderstanding?

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Speaker 1
 Well, one would be false teaching, right? I mean,

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Speaker 1
 you mentioned 500 years, and I've already mentioned it, we're both referring to the Protestant Reformation, where the reformers such as Luther and Calvin and Zwingli and many others just basically went back to Scripture to show that a number of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church were in error. And it largely had to do with the law, other things, but the law was the central issue.

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Speaker 1
 But that teaching had been present, and I would probably say, I'm not a church historian, but gathering steam for a millennia. So a lot of it has to do with all the things so a lot of it has to do with false teaching, but I think it also has to do with our,

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Speaker 1
 really all the way back, I think, to original sin. And we just, because once Adam and Eve sinned, we as fallen human beings have a need to justify ourselves.

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Speaker 1
 And so, you know, we have a choice, everybody has a choice. You can either rely on self-justification or on justification that comes through faith in Christ. There isn't another option, there isn't another camp. It's one or the other. And so when Adam and Eve sinned, it's like all of a sudden something's wrong with me.

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Speaker 1
 That is, we all experience that. And so then apart from God's grace, we have to self justify ourselves. And how do we self justify ourselves? Well, that's where the law, you know, like if I do this, right? And it may not be expressed in like following certain laws, like certain rules, but in general, that's how it plays out.

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Speaker 2
 Okay. Yeah, that's helpful. Thanks.

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Speaker 2
 You described two opposite ends of the spectrum. The liberal view that says obedience is almost optional, and the legalistic view that says we must obey to be loved. What do you think is at the root of these two extremes? What causes them to come up in us one way or the other?

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Speaker 1
 Well, the legalistic view is in part what we were just talking about, about the need to self-justify ourselves. And it's also a way that we can make ourselves feel superior to one another. So one of the ways that we try to justify ourselves is we have this mentality that as long as I'm better than X person, or if we look down on this person or I focus on what this person is doing, then I'm okay. Right?

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Speaker 1
 And I think, honestly, I think if we are being transparent, that's something that we all struggle with.

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Speaker 1
 So there's that. And again, it's the church traditions that we grow up in. And I mentioned the Roman Catholic Church, but I've been around a lot of what I would call fundamentalist.

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Speaker 1
 And at the end of the day, I would just say that they

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Speaker 1
 have the same issue, at least practically speaking. It's not necessarily in what they would say or directly preach or teach or say that they hold to, but in the way that that it actually functions, and where like these extra biblical rules, I talked about the fences on Sunday, like there's so many fences and the fences are not biblical, but we put these fences up so that we don't get

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Speaker 1
 to guard us from getting to the place where we might overstep what the Bible teaches. And what happens is functionally those fences, they get into people's heads and hearts in the sense that they actually become what keeps you saved or what saves you. Now, again,

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Speaker 1
 fundamentalists would not, like that's not their theology. You read their doctrinal statement, but I've been around a lot of it,

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Speaker 1
 like a lot, a lot of it. And that's functionally how it operates in the hearts and minds of people that are in those churches. Not everybody, not fully all the time, not saying that, but that's just like, we're continually looking like these rules, I'm not a good Christian if I don't do this or don't do that.

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Speaker 1
 So there's that.

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Speaker 1
 Then the other side is,

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Speaker 1
 I love what Tim Killer,

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Speaker 1
 he's got a book on the prodigal son, the parable prodigal son. Actually, the book's called the Prodigal God because the story is more about the kind of God that we have than that. But he talks about how you can rebel against God in two ways by running away from Him or running to Him. And he's talking to the Pharisees, so they're the people who run too, by keeping his rules, like justifying themselves. And then there's people who run away from Him, and it's a way that we try to save, like, save, I'm free to do. And because I'm... And so there's this love thing that morphs, and it's also tied to, I think, this idea, like, especially in American culture where the right to self-determination,

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Speaker 1
 I get to determine

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Speaker 1
 there's no one that can tell me what I should do, what I should think, how I identify, like, who I want to be and all those kinds of things. And so, like, then a God of simply of love becomes very appealing right there because then a God of love doesn't put any constraints on me.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah.

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Speaker 1
 And that's progressive. That is progressive Christianity, which is really an oxymoron. So, now I'm opening a can of worms there, but it... It seems like we've talked about this before. But it is.

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Speaker 1
 And progressive is another name for liberal. There is no such thing as progressive or liberal Christianity.

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Speaker 1
 And there are, there may be some liberal Christians,

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Speaker 1
 progressive Christians,

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Speaker 1
 but there's no such thing as progressive or liberal Christianity.

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Speaker 1
 And I'm not, like, downplaying one or the other here. I think that they're both, as I mentioned, on Sunday, grave and dangerous errors. Sure.

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Speaker 2
 Sure. You want to expand a little bit on what you mean by there's no progressive Christianity? Like, what are you saying there?

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Speaker 1
 Well, I mean, progressive Christianity

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Speaker 1
 would basically do away with some very clear teachings of the Bible on matters.

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Speaker 1
 Longing fruit here is sexuality. So, this idea that, in Christianity, like, two people of the same sex can be married toward one another. That's not Christianity.

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Speaker 1
 And we could go along a whole list of things, whether it be on the abortion issue.

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Speaker 1
 And so, there's this...

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Speaker 1
 Again, I want to be clear, I'm not saying that there aren't progressive Christians,

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Speaker 1
 because I'm not going to the law that we're saved by our view on abortion or even our view on sexuality. I'm just saying that this

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Speaker 1
 idea that Christians can have varying views or different views on essential issues of the Bible is just false.

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Speaker 2
 Well, what would be underlying that kind of view, like, the progressive Christianity would be that God is still speaking, right? That God's still changing his mind that we weren't actually... We didn't actually have it right when Jesus was here. And so, we're progressing, right?

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Speaker 1
 Right. Well, and fundamentally, the problem with that is that what they do with scripture, revelation, and a Christian is someone who believes that the canon is closed and God's word is infallible and inerrant in the original manuscripts.

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Speaker 1
 And that's what it means to be a Christian. So again, a progressive Christian would not agree with that statement. And so, for sure, a progressive Christianity, I should say, would not agree with that statement. And so, it's not Christianity. That makes sense.

[00:15:42:04 - 00:16:06:21]
Speaker 2
 So, going back to these kind of two ditches we're talking about, the liberal versus legalistic. Would it necessarily be obvious where we land on these things? Like, just thinking introspectively about ourselves? Do you think it would be obvious to know, "Hey, on this area, I lean legalistic"? And if not, how can we better recognize that in ourselves?

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Speaker 1
 Yeah. I mean,

[00:16:10:17 - 00:16:32:23]
Speaker 1
 first I would say it's entirely possible and probably likely that we all fall in some ways on some issues on one side and on other issues on the other. And sometimes we have a more legalistic view for other people and a more love view for ourselves. And sometimes, honestly, it's actually the opposite.

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Speaker 1
 I think this is really where it does take some... A lot of times, I think we're just even unaware of it. And so, it does take some prayerful consideration and thought to... This is why, again,

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Speaker 1
 the gospel is so important for us to not...

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Speaker 1
 We have to get away from this idea that the gospel is simply what we believe to be saved.

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Speaker 1
 Christ, I have for my sins and rose again, 1 Corinthians 15, first few verses there. That's the gospel in a nutshell, but the gospel is much, much deeper than that. And so, applying that to how does that work its way out into virtually every area of my life,

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Speaker 1
 it takes a lifetime. Maybe it'll take an eternity in some ways.

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Speaker 1
 And so, again, that's why the church and both in its corporate sense and in its smaller gatherings is so important because we need people to help us to be able to see what we can't see and walk. And by the way, this is also, if I can just say a word to younger people, maybe to younger and older people, but to younger people, this is why having older believers in your life who've walked through some things is really, really important.

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Speaker 1
 And I would not have been able to preach the message that I preached on Sunday

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Speaker 1
 20 years ago, maybe even 10 years ago. It's taken like, I've got a lot more miles on the tires, so to speak. And I'm talking about ministry miles and life miles of... Because this is not something I just observed. I try to make that clear in other people. It's something that I very much walk through myself. And then on the other side, this is why we need older believers who have gone out to actually invest in younger people and to help them to be able to see it and understand.

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Speaker 2
 Yeah.

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Speaker 2
 You made the point that the real question isn't, "Am I obeying Jesus, but do I love Him?"

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Speaker 2
 How can we tell whether our obedience is truly flowing from love or from something else?

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Speaker 1
 Well, that's a great question.

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Speaker 1
 So one of those questions made me think, I want to say, what do you think, but I think it is...

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Speaker 1
 In terms of...

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Speaker 1
 Well, let me say it this way. It probably matters in the context. If we're talking about obeying Jesus, then part of it is, the question I think is, "Do I really want to do this? Do I want to obey Him?" Now,

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Speaker 1
 that doesn't mean... Sometimes we need to obey Him even when we don't want to.

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Speaker 1
 But why are we doing that? Are we doing that? Because

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Speaker 1
 even though I don't want to, I know what He's done for me and I want to please Him. I want to want to please Him.

[00:20:09:12 - 00:20:12:14]
Speaker 1
 Or are we doing it because... Here's the...

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Speaker 1
 Maybe the number one thing that I've struggled with in my life and following Jesus is just finding myself regularly

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Speaker 1
 doing things because of a fear. If I don't, what's going to happen?

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Speaker 2
 Yeah.

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Speaker 1
 You know what I'm talking about? For sure. Oh, I better or...

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Speaker 1
 It's just not going to go well for me.

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Speaker 2
 I think so many things can motivate us to follow rules. And it's not necessarily a love for Jesus.

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Speaker 1
 And so that for me has been just really, really a big one. Again, maybe the biggest one is, "Am I doing it because I want to please Him and I'm in relationship with Him? Or am I doing it because I have this idea that if I don't...

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Speaker 1
 And sometimes He's going to get me. Bad things are going to happen to me."

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Speaker 1
 And so I think that that is for me at least.

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Speaker 1
 And I think it's also... Is it flowing... Am I thinking in terms, again, of relationship with Him? And am I thinking in terms of like, "This is a person that I am in relationship with." More than...

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Speaker 1
 Like I try to talk about, are we separating His commands, His teaching from Him personally?

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Speaker 1
 And is it all about the rules?

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Speaker 1
 And I think for me it's also, it's like,

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Speaker 1
 "Am I hoping to get something out of this other than like Him?"

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Speaker 1
 Am I thinking, "Oh, if I..." And I mean, this is...

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Speaker 1
 There's a lot more health and wealth out there than we think of. There's this health and wealth mentality that is apart from the kind of the charismatic movement. And there's health and wealth in legalistic churches as well. So it's like, if you obey God, then these are the blessings. And again, it's not always stated that way, but sometimes it's like, "Well, this person is... They're blessed or whatever." Well, that's because they're obeying. They're coming to church, they're talking to church, they're tithing, they're like doing these kinds of things. So what are we... Are we doing this for Him or are we doing it ultimately for us and what we are hoping to get out of it? Yeah.

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Speaker 2
 I think this was one of the bigger things that I struggled with as I was prepping for this was I think of even the way that we, as Christians, do accountability with each other, right? Like, you come into a meeting with someone that you're staying accountable to. Well, did you obey that week? Did you do the things you were supposed to do because of fear of that person that you knew you were going to meet with? And so there's just so many things that I think can have so many different motivations.

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Speaker 2
 And it made me think like, how should that shape the way we deal with our sin? Right? If we are confronting someone about their sin, like we want to obviously pull them back into the right motivation for killing that sin. But also, you know, I can just see someone

[00:24:02:04 - 00:24:25:23]
Speaker 2
 kind of pushing back on this and saying, "As long as I'm obeying, does it really matter why I'm doing it?" Right? So I don't know. Mixing the, you need to obey and then adding the, we need to have a proper motivation for obeying as well. I think it can be maybe overwhelming. I don't know. I was just wrestling with a lot of that stuff as I thought through it.

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Speaker 1
 Well, I have two responses to that. First, I try to make this go on Sunday. If you only obey because of like, I have to obey or I should obey, or this is what it's going to get, I'm going to get out of it, or God's what I'm going to avoid, it's sure to go wrong at some point. I'm just telling you, like, it's going to go wrong. The more important aspect of the answer to this question though, is that the Bible is really clear that God cares much more about our heart than He does about our outward actions. The actions count, like they're important, like they matter. But if we do it for a motivation that is other than for His glory,

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Speaker 1
 it's actually idolatry, because we're doing it for the glory of something else or someone else. And so, yeah, I mean,

[00:25:27:19 - 00:25:38:17]
Speaker 1
 there are times where we need to obey even when we don't want to. For sure. If you only obey when you want to, that's a bad route to go down, okay? But if you only obey

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Speaker 1
 just because you ought to,

[00:25:43:05 - 00:26:06:22]
Speaker 1
 that's an equally dangerous issue. And so again, there's the love and obedience thing. And I just find it's so much in Christianity, and especially in kind of our, and I want to say circle, because we have people that come from so many different kind of backgrounds.

[00:26:07:22 - 00:26:10:03]
Speaker 1
 But it's such this rules and following,

[00:26:11:07 - 00:26:43:03]
Speaker 1
 and like in an overemphasis on that, which then tends to send a lot of people on the other, the swing the other side. And so it is, yes, we need to obey. Oh, maybe I actually was started with this. Yes, we need to obey from the right motivation out of a love for God, really responds to His love for us. But then that doesn't mean like the obedience doesn't matter. So we need to say yes, but it's where is it going to come from? So it's a both and it's not an either or.

[00:26:43:03 - 00:26:44:03]
Speaker 2
 Yeah.

[00:26:46:06 - 00:26:46:11]
Speaker 2
 All right.

[00:26:48:01 - 00:26:56:05]
Speaker 2
 So some of this thinking got me to another question about parenting, right? So like,

[00:26:56:05 - 00:26:58:04]
Speaker 1
 I have nothing to say about this.

[00:26:58:04 - 00:27:00:11]
Speaker 2
 Okay, good. All right. I'll answer myself.

[00:27:01:17 - 00:27:17:11]
Speaker 2
 No, I just like, I think there's a lot of times where I feel as a parent, that I just want my kids to obey, right? And maybe I don't really care what the motive is. I just want them to obey. And so like taking all of this that we've been talking about, how can we

[00:27:19:15 - 00:27:29:13]
Speaker 2
 use that to influence the way that we talk to our kids, the way we encourage them to obey not only us, but Jesus. Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 1
 Well, I would start, we can talk about this a lot, because it is a vital question.

[00:27:37:13 - 00:27:54:13]
Speaker 1
 It's a fantastic question, and it is supremely important that we wrestle with this. I think, first of all, I want to just start with the word of grace, because parents, like it's really, really hard to even get close to getting this right.

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Speaker 1
 And we need to know God's grace, and that He works despite us many times. And it's certainly been,

[00:28:06:15 - 00:29:25:22]
Speaker 1
 you know, that's my testimony, for sure. So I just want to start out with that. But I think this is back to the relationship component, is where we try to help our kids understand the Christian life in terms of, it's ultimately about a relationship, begins and ends with a relationship. It's not all that we need to say about that, but it is like, you were made for God, sin has broken your relationship with Him. God loves you so much that He sent Christ to die for your sins. Now, through faith in Him, you're adopted in His family, you're His child. And that is the fundamental thing about you. And you talk about identity, like there's a huge issue today. What is your identity? Your identity is as a child of God. Like that's who you are. And there might be other things that you do, and there are other aspects of your life, but the fundamental, the central thing is that. And just returning over and over again to that and living out of that and helping them to wrestle through what that means and what that looks like and how it impacts literally everything.

[00:29:27:11 - 00:29:32:16]
Speaker 1
 And talking about it in those terms, I think is,

[00:29:34:04 - 00:30:01:23]
Speaker 1
 in many ways, there's little else for me to... I mean, I can, and maybe I will here, but like, if we don't get that, I mean, we're just chasing our... I think we're just going to be chasing our tails with that. So, and in that scope, like if we're in God's family, He's our Father. And so, because He's a good Father, He's going to have... You know,

[00:30:03:13 - 00:31:05:21]
Speaker 1
 if you just want to use that word, like there's going to be rules that He would have us to follow. But those rules are for for our good. It's not because He's holding out on us. It's because He knows what's best, and we can trust that He knows what's best because of what He's done for us. So, you go back to... You know, you keep going back to the gospel and those rules are going to run up against us because of our sin nature. And we're not going to appreciate those a lot of time, but we got to understand that God doesn't give us rules just to give us rules, because He's harsh or because He's holding out on us. It's because He actually has our best interest in mind. And I think that the best way to go this with, whether it's adults or teenagers or kids, is you go back to Exodus and you go back to the Ten Commandments and you recognize that before God gives the people of Israel the Ten Commandments, He actually frees them from slavery in Egypt.

[00:31:07:02 - 00:31:12:01]
Speaker 1
 And then He gives them the Ten Commandments, and those Ten Commandments, they get a bad rap.

[00:31:14:02 - 00:31:49:05]
Speaker 1
 They get a bad rap. They're all like, they're the gods don't do, don't do, don't do. And yet, we got to understand is like, the people of Israel were entering into a culture, a context, culture is really a context where there were all of these pagan nations and foreign gods, and they were going to be in engraved danger emotionally, spiritually, physically, and in every way. And so, those Ten Commandments are God's protection from them. They're like, here's how you live actually,

[00:31:51:04 - 00:32:06:04]
Speaker 1
 a blessed, here's the blessed life is because I know what's best for you. And so, you look at things like, you know, you, you, I mean, we could go through all of them, but one of them is you should not covet your neighbor's wife.

[00:32:07:22 - 00:32:09:00]
Speaker 1
 You know, just like,

[00:32:10:11 - 00:32:26:12]
Speaker 1
 and that's not a, that's not harsh. Like, that's for your good, that's for your, your family's good, that's for your community's good, it's for your children's good, right? Like, and so, you know,

[00:32:29:00 - 00:32:34:09]
Speaker 1
 yeah, I mean, I hate going on in regards to that, but you just talk about like, I think it's,

[00:32:35:09 - 00:32:54:13]
Speaker 1
 I don't know how well I did this, but one thing I did try to do with my kids is just try to push it back and say, listen, like, these things that God has parameters that God has put, they're like, they're good for us. They're not like in the world and our flesh and like, and

[00:32:56:02 - 00:33:48:02]
Speaker 1
 just gonna say to somebody like, this is heavy, this is hard, like, this is not, and that's just not, not the way that it is. Even, we don't have time for this, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop one this point in this, but even those, those, those, all those commands that God gives the people of Israel in the Old Testament that we look at and like, what's this about, you can't eat shrimp and you know, and like, like the ones I have, like I love me some pork. Okay, so like, like almost all, all of it, and several chitlins, I don't get into the sense of that, but, so, but like, like, what's, what is that all about? And they, it actually is not just random God being like, I just want to pile, there's actually, if you understand any study, like there's actual, real, legitimate purposes in that for the, the, the people of Israel is good.

[00:33:49:08 - 00:33:50:09]
Speaker 1
 For sure. Yeah.

[00:33:50:09 - 00:33:58:13]
Speaker 2
 Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's really good. I think, I think this kind of comes back to the whole, like, I don't know,

[00:33:59:14 - 00:34:27:12]
Speaker 2
 it was talked about for a long time, the whole behavior modification thing, right? So are we interested in just change behavior? Are we interested in like actual heart change? And I think that in general, like Harmony has done a really good job of pushing people to the gospel, but I think it's just like that daily kind of grind of like, how do we shepherd our kids well, when a lot of times all we want is just like, Hey, stop doing what you're doing.

[00:34:27:12 - 00:34:51:13]
Speaker 1
 Right. Right. Right. And there are times where, I mean, like, I know I said I was done, but, like, you use the, just to use the example of, you know, I've got young grandkids, like you, they're, they're over messing with the, the, the light socket, right? Like, you don't, you don't, you don't, it's not harsh to say, we're not going to let you play and stick things in the light socket.

[00:34:52:21 - 00:34:58:23]
Speaker 1
 But that's everywhere. And we laugh about that, but it, but it's like, of course, they don't, they don't have the understanding. We don't understand anything that God has.

[00:35:00:00 - 00:35:03:06]
Speaker 1
 And we know it would be harmful for them.

[00:35:04:09 - 00:35:29:05]
Speaker 1
 And, and yet, and, and there also are times where if there's, they're about to stick a fork in, in the electrical outlet that you need to get their attention. It's not the time to be nice and sweet. Now, now some people today would be like, you should always speak in a nice, tender voice. That's probably not what your kid needs. And they're sticking a, about to stick a fork in. You probably need this to raise your voice and say, stop.

[00:35:29:05 - 00:35:29:19]
Speaker 2
 Yep.

[00:35:31:00 - 00:35:54:20]
Speaker 1
 Now talk about getting responses submitted to questions on that, but it's, it's not like, and I'm not suggesting that we get all harsh with him, but that you do, there are times where with our kids, we was like, Hey, you're, you're not going to talk to your mom like that. You're not going to, no, this is, this is, no, we're not doing this. And they, and I say, especially for, for dads,

[00:35:55:21 - 00:36:04:04]
Speaker 1
 the, a real challenge for dads here that we've got to try to learn is how to be firm. Okay.

[00:36:05:07 - 00:36:07:03]
Speaker 1
 Without being harsh.

[00:36:08:09 - 00:36:14:08]
Speaker 1
 Like, is there a time where kids are mistreating their siblings or

[00:36:15:21 - 00:36:21:00]
Speaker 1
 like their mom in particular? We need to be like, that's just, we're not, we're not doing that. Um,

[00:36:22:04 - 00:36:50:20]
Speaker 1
 and, and yeah, I guess I'm, I'm, I'm going on onto things here that you weren't even necessarily asking about, but it's, but it is like, there are times where God speaks very strongly to, in the Old Testament and the New Testament, to the people of Israel and to believers, like it's, there are strong words. Um, and they're meant, they are, even though strong words are grace. Yeah. Right. And we are to model our parenting after our heavenly father.

[00:36:50:20 - 00:37:12:03]
Speaker 2
 Yeah. For sure. All right. We will wrap it up there. Um, thanks for, thanks for coming in. Yeah. Thanks for the conversation. Uh, we are actually going to take the next week off, so we'll be back the week after that. But, uh, if you do have any questions, uh, you can still send them in, ask at furtherpodcast.com and we'll talk to you in two weeks.