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Brenton
 Welcome back to Further. I am Brenton Grimm. Chris Carr, you're back. How you doing?

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Chris
 Yeah, we're all back, right? Yeah, right. I mean, it's a little bit of a hiatus, but it's good to be back, and I'm looking forward to this conversation today. For sure.

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Brenton
 Yeah.

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Brenton
 Yeah, I wanted to just off the top of the show kind of mention we're coming right off the core. Which I thought was probably one of our best chords we've had. It was really well attended. What were your thoughts coming out of that?

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Chris
 It was just a great night. I mean, we have so much to be thankful for and to be excited about. And it was great to see everybody come out. And yeah, I mean,

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Chris
 we could have probably spent another half hour, hour just talking about all the things that are going on and how the Lord is blessing. But it was a really, really great evening. And I'm looking forward to as well to what the Lord has for us in the days ahead.

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Brenton
 Yeah, absolutely. All right, so on to John 16 here. You briefly mentioned the unforgivable sin, which made me kind of happy to ask a question about that, right? So you defined it as refusing to believe in Jesus.

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Brenton
 But out of my own curiosity, why do you think that this particular topic has become such a big issue in our culture?

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Brenton
 There seems to be quite a few different interpretations of what that has meant over the years. And I guess why has it generated so much confusion and anxiety for people?

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Chris
 Well, I think that's probably because when you talk about a sin that can't be forgiven, I mean, there's a weightiness, certainly a heaviness to it. I think partly it's probably because we're just not as familiar with the Scripture as we should be. So maybe it just would be helpful to talk about a little bit more, I think, biblically speaking. I didn't go there on Sunday for the sake of time. But you have in Matthew, Mark, and Luke--

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Chris
 and I'll just read from Mark because it's the shortest. But Jesus-- actually, these are the words of Jesus-- whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal sin.

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Chris
 And Luke 12 says, whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. So that's kind of the origins, biblically speaking. What happens-- and this is quite often the case, is people don't understand the context in which this is saying. And so Jesus has just healed a demon,

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Chris
 possessed man,

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Chris
 or at least oppressed.

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Chris
 And he's done so through the power of the Holy Spirit,

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Chris
 which his miracles are signs meant to point out to the fact that he is the Messiah, who he is. And so the Pharisees see this, and they say he drives out demons by the power of Satan.

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Chris
 So they're attributing the Holy Spirit's work to the devil. And now, let's keep in context-- and we even see this in John 16--

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Chris
 that the Holy Spirit's work is to point people to Jesus and to bring glory to Jesus. And so blaspheming the Holy Spirit is, as I defined it on Sunday,

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Chris
 is actually refusing to respond to his convicting work that Jesus is who he is, that he is the Messiah, the Son of God, the Savior of the world. So I think people just--

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Chris
 yeah,

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Chris
 when they think about blaspheming, when they think about the unforgettable sin, they think about something that they have done in regards to the Holy Spirit. That's where it comes a lot of times. And that is true, but they miss out. And this is maybe the biggest problem with people's view of the Holy Spirit in the first place a lot of times, is they don't understand that the Holy Spirit's job is not to point to himself, but it's to point to Christ.

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Chris
 And we see that very clearly in John 16. So I went a little bit around-- I'll haul around there, but I think we just don't understand the context of Scripture and what it actually means to, again, blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

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Chris
 And that really means to just--

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Chris
 I'll put it this way. It's to call the Holy Spirit a liar. And he's lying about-- it's about Jesus.

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Brenton
 Yeah, that's good.

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Brenton
 You explained that convict doesn't mean condemnation, which I think we can think that at times. But rather, it's meant to lead us to salvation. You also talked about guilt and shame being God's given, emotions meant to lead us to repentance.

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Brenton
 So how would you encourage a believer who feels stuck in guilt and shame and can't seem to move toward the grace that is actually offered through that conviction?

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Chris
 Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it's a really important one, because so many people find themselves in this place on just a pretty regular basis.

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Chris
 And I would begin by saying, I think it's really helpful for us to understand that our shame actually drives, in many cases, our unhealthy behavior and attitudes and even our thoughts

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Chris
 in terms of--

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Chris
 if we can, I think, see that shame is not only the result of sin, but is actually a leading factor, a leading cause of it.

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Chris
 That can be really, really helpful for us to be able to learn to have our shame detectors out and to see how often the way that we are thinking and responding is actually out of a shame that I'm a failure. I'm not good enough. I've messed up too much. There's something wrong with me, something missing with me. And that can, I think, be a really good, in some ways,

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Chris
 starting point. And recognize that when we do experience shame,

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Chris
 that we have a choice that we can either run toward God or we can run away from Him. And this is where I think Genesis 3 is-- well, we go back to this.

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Chris
 I do,

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Chris
 so often here on the podcast. But that's because we see in Genesis 3 that when Adam and Eve sin, they immediately feel shame, which is appropriate.

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Chris
 But what they do with that is they run from the Lord,

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Chris
 which leads to further bad behavior because then they start blaming everybody else and even God and each other and the serpent. And there's a tailspin that's going on.

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Chris
 But what we need to recognize is that God doesn't leave them alone in that. He actually comes for them. And so our shame doesn't drive Him away from us. It will tend to drive us away from Him. But He's coming toward us. And if we can learn more and more to notice the shame, see what it's doing, where it's pointing us, and then learn to go back to the truth of God's grace

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Chris
 and that He will always welcome us with open arms to those who

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Chris
 turn to Him that I think can just be so, so helpful in overcoming this. And I do want to say, back to the Holy Spirit, the conviction does--

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Chris
 it's not devoid of condemnation because the Holy Spirit will help us to see that we are under condemnation for our sin.

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Chris
 And I mentioned, you know, guilt and shame being a guy giving emotion there. I really do believe it's to help us to see, like, there's a problem. But it's always for the purpose of actually bringing us home for salvation. So Jesus, we've seen this in John. John says, like, I didn't come to condemn the world because the world's already condemned. Like, the Holy Spirit doesn't condemn us,

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Chris
 but He will bring to us the fact that we are under condemnation. Like, He's going to make it aware, make us aware of that.

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Chris
 It's not like He's-- like, when we condemn people or we feel condemned by people, like, you did this and you're, you know, this, this, and this. That's not the condemnation. It's just the bringing the truth to light. Like, this is the reality, but He's always doing it for our benefit.

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Chris
 You know, we think of condemnation as being negative because that's the way we experience it so often. Yeah, for sure.

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Chris
 From other people, especially, and oftentimes,

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Chris
 I'm putting it-- you can't see this, but the church and air quotes here, like, are the religion anyway. But that's not the work of the Holy Spirit. And so, we can even say, how do we know it's the Holy Spirit? Well, the Holy Spirit, if it's Him, we're not-- we don't end up in condemnation. It's not a condemning voice.

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Chris
 There's a difference between conviction and condemnation. I tried to bring it out. Conviction is for the purpose of salvation. Condemnation is just leaves us there, leaves us in our guilt and shame. Yeah.

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Brenton
 Yeah, I think you kind of answered my next question. I wanted to get into a little bit of the positive side of that, of what does or what should it look like when the Spirit is actually convicting us. Even, like, as believers, I think specifically,

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Brenton
 what should our response be to that instead of to kind of go back to the shame and hide it, or whatever, like, our-- I think it's probably pretty obvious, like, our response should be to run to the cross, right? But I think, you know, like we were talking about, that can be difficult. Sure. Right? Sure. So, like, what is that process of, like-- maybe it's just more belief, maybe it's just accepting that this is true.

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Brenton
 But what would you say to that?

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Chris
 Yeah, I mean, it's-- this is complicated, because on the one hand, we don't also want to go, like, okay,

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Chris
 you know, it's no big deal. Like, we're forgiven, God loves us.

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Brenton
 Sure. Yeah.

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Chris
 My-- yeah, I'm a sinner, but hey, God's got a love, and He's grace, and forgiveness, and-- which is true, but in terms of, like, when the Holy Spirit is convicting us, there is a heaviness to that. Yeah.

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Chris
 Mm.

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Chris
 There is, like, oh, yeah, I mean, I have sinned against a holy God. And this is true whether it's a, you know, an unbeliever or a believer. Like, obviously, an unbeliever for the first time, experiencing conviction and salvation, but then the Holy Spirit still convicts us. I think we maybe will get to this in a little bit more. But we still are convicted by the Holy Spirit that we have-- that when we sin, and so we should need to take it seriously.

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Chris
 And then, as you've already talked about, is this is going to the cross. It's another opportunity for us to go to the gospel and to remind ourselves of God's grace and forgiveness in Christ. But I also would point out that I think that this is why other--

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Chris
 again, having other people in our lives, other believers in our lives, who can help us on both ends of the spectrum to see that our sin is serious. And maybe this is just a word for when people confess into us. Like, we don't just say, like, kind of, you know, move on quickly. It's like,

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Chris
 now, if you confess a sin to me, I mean, like, I want to-- I should show you grace, but also, like, okay, let's make sure that we understand, like, this is serious and God does forgive, but Christ died for that sin. And we want to-- and I think that's important to actually turning from this sin, because if we don't take it seriously, then we just give ourselves to it again. And that's seriously missing in the church, a lack of seriousness about sin.

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Chris
 And so-- but then also have people to continue to speak the gospel over us. And I think when it comes to shame, it's really, really helpful if we can have people in our lives who are willing to be there with us in it and to show us really the grace and mercy of the Lord in a very physical way, an embodied way. Because there's a power to it when you can sit across the table from me and I can share with you, like, what I've done or what's happened to me

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Chris
 or both, and you're able to not pull away. I mean, this is really what we need. So I can say to people all day long that God's moving toward us in our guilt and shame. It's really hard for anybody to truly experience that unless they have another flesh and blood person who is embodying that. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I'm not saying it's impossible,

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Chris
 but that's not the way that even I believe God designed it to work. He created us to be in relationship with other human beings. Does that make sense? Yeah.

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Brenton
 And I think we'll get to that a little more, our brothers and sisters' responsibility in that.

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Brenton
 Like is talked about in John 16, we're used as a tool through the Spirit to convict people, but

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Chris
 we'll get to that in a little bit. Well, yeah. And I just say, like,

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Chris
 the Paul's most frequently used, basically metaphor for the church is the body of Christ. I think sometimes we don't really understand all the implications of that. Like we are his body, which means the body's a physical presence. We are his physical presence in this world, in a sense, and go haywire, but there is a real sense, so that's the case.

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Brenton
 Yeah, for sure.

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Brenton
 You made the point that the root sin behind all sins is actually persistent unbelief. This comes from verse 9 that says, "Concerning sin, because they do not believe in me."

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Brenton
 I know you were specifically talking about unbelievers there, but would you say that that's still true for believers that our sin often or maybe always comes from a lack of belief?

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Chris
 Can I just say yes? Sure.

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Chris
 You can say yes. I probably won't, but I think I like that word always. You can mark it down, our sin always comes from a lack of belief and remember trust.

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Chris
 Do I trust God to provide? Do I trust that His way is the best way?

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Chris
 Do I trust that His words are true every time? Like, I mean, again, go back to Genesis 3, but what's Satan say? "Did God really say?" And we got into this mess because Adam and Eve, who had believed in God, who did believe in God, right? I mean, there's undoubtedly... Dependent on Him. Right, and trust Him. Then all of a sudden, they are tempted,

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Chris
 and then there was a lack of belief, a lack of trust, and that led to the sin and it's led to every other sin since then. Okay.

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Chris
 Well, I mean, and there's... I don't know that we have time today, maybe we could put a pin in this and come back to it. There's a lot there.

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Chris
 In terms of like... I literally,

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Chris
 as I was writing the message, I was like, "This could be another

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Chris
 point at the end of my sermon to believers is that the Holy Spirit convicts in regards to sin, righteousness, and judgment." And that's what He does in the context He's talking about, primarily, unbelievers, but the same thing is true for a belief that this continues, because we still don't trust Him fully. Nobody trusts Jesus... What I mean by fully is like, all the time in everything. If we did, we would be perfect. Like, there would be no more sin. We still seek our own self-righteousness. Every... I would make a case that every believer does that,

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Chris
 to some degree, and we all are convicted of making our own judgments where... And this really ties into the believing, but we're like, what we believe to be true and how we are judging things is not the way that God is, and it's not the truth. Or we judge His judgments.

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Chris
 And we think... I mean, I'm literally having a conversation with somebody this morning who's talking about the reading the Old Testament, going through Joshua right now,

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Chris
 and then questioning God, like questioning God. Why does God allow this? Why does He do this? And I'm not saying that the questions are not...

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Chris
 Yeah, I mean, those are in somewhat natural, but it can get really easily turned into judging God for His judgments. And I think Job's a great example of that too, and we can just see that on and on. So, I mean, there's a lot of hay that we could make out of this, but this is one of the reasons too, that if we preach the Bible and we preach the gospel, we hit believers and unbelievers all in one fell swoop. Yeah, for sure.

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Brenton
 Well, that's kind of relevant to our next question. So you said that all humans have ways of seeking to make themselves right.

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Brenton
 And I'm curious, because you're including unbelievers in that. Someone that maybe an atheist say that doesn't believe that God exists still has an innate desire to make themselves right before something, right? Where does that innate desire come from for all of us to prove ourselves, to make ourselves worthy of something?

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Chris
 Well,

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Chris
 I think that, again, it's hardwired into us because we were created right, and righteous,

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Chris
 perfect or flawless.

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Chris
 And I think we are all trying to get back to Eden.

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Chris
 And I think when you think about it a little bit, that's just undoubtedly true. You know, we have this idea of utopia, right? And we all have dreams, like, and what I mean, I'm not talking about when you sleep so much, I'm talking about like, like, dreams is the way that we believe things should, we have ideas of how things should be. There's justice in the world, and we have this sense that some things are right and some things are wrong. The big fallacy of the day is like this idea of relativism, and it just doesn't work because nobody's a total relativist. They have what they, like,

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Chris
 everybody, people believe in relativism until it comes to what they really are passionate about. It just falls, it boldly falls apart. Yeah, I think if you just listen to people and hear, you know, people, we make judgments all the time.

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Chris
 Every human being makes judgments about what is right and what is wrong. And maybe they don't use that language. And where does that come from? Because we have this innate sense that there is right.

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Chris
 There is something that's right. And we all know that we are not right.

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Brenton
 Okay.

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Brenton
 You talked about Philippians 3, and this is where Paul lists out all of his achievements in his life. You, you called it a nearly flawless resume.

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Brenton
 And yet he essentially threw it in the shredder, he threw it in the garbage, right? So the process of ridding ourselves of our self-righteousness is, it is a very difficult one. And even after coming to faith, like we often, we don't completely get rid of that. We still latch on to what we can offer. And so, what should this ongoing process, after we, our believers, what should that look like for us? Like, how do we identify the subtle ways we're still clinging to our own achievements, our own resume?

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Brenton
 And what steps like help us to move toward resting in Christ's righteousness instead?

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Chris
 Well, the first thing I want to say, I tried to mention this on Sunday, but like this is a massive undertaking and probably a lifelong process. It certainly is, has been for me. I think we have to begin by recognizing that we all have means of self-righteousness, like every single human does. And if you don't,

[00:28:13:04 - 00:28:25:20]
Chris
 you probably are even giving an indication of what it is, of like, it's, I'm better, or like, I don't struggle with that, or like, it's this superiority.

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Chris
 So, I mean, there's innumerable different ways that I probably could list out here. But first of all, I was recognizing, like, even if I'm not sure what that is, I do have things that I put my identity. So, you know, self-righteousness and identity often go, like, we're talking about the same thing. We either have our identity in Christ or we have our identity in something else. And so we either have our, you know, we're looking for righteousness in Christ, or we're looking for it in ourself in some way. And every, like, everybody has that. And just having the humility to say, even if I don't know what it is, what they are, because it's almost always plural,

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Chris
 like, just to say, I have them and really to have humility then to say, I really want to try to discern what they are, which is, it's just much easier to not do that, because it can be really, really difficult. Another way,

[00:29:31:09 - 00:29:59:04]
Chris
 then, or maybe the next thing is, like, what are those things? If you lose them, or those things are threatened, does it really throw you into a tailspin? And I'm not talking about the things that if you don't have them, they don't affect you. Like, they can affect you. You can be sad. You can be sad about them.

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Chris
 But if you lose them, or even if they're somewhat threatened.

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Chris
 So, let's just use an example as a parent. If

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Chris
 I am made to feel like I'm a bad parent, okay, by my child, most likely, or by some other person, you know, who, parent or whatever,

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Chris
 if that shouldn't impact me, like, if it doesn't impact me, then there's another problem, okay? But I can be sad about that. I can be concerned about that. That can hurt me, but it absolutely devastates me. And I'd, like, my world is coming to an end. Then I probably put my identity in being a good parent.

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Chris
 Or, I mean, you talk about marriage.

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Chris
 You know, if when my spouse is upset with me, I feel like my world is over,

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Chris
 then it very well may be be married or what your spouse thinks of you. Not that you don't want to be affected if your spouse is upset with you. You don't want it the other way. Right. But it's just like, or, you know, whether it's lose your job or your finances, take a hit. I mean, this is going to sound silly, but I think it is, is like when your favorite sports team loses.

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Chris
 And it sounds like we laugh, but people, like, how you're finding your identity. And I'm not laughing because you're saying that when the bears are setting through. Yeah. But it's actually a really good illustration because it's somewhat of a safe illustration.

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Chris
 But it's like how, it's fine. Like, it's good. Sports are good. I think they're good given. But if it's like, oh man, I'm just a lie down. Okay, well then there's that. But it could be just,

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Chris
 if we mess up, like, and we're just devastated because we messed something up. Well, then I don't want to be that kind of person. Like, I don't want to be thought of as that kind of person. And so you just have to like, what are the things that really that matter the most to me?

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Chris
 And what happens when I don't have them or they're taken away from me or I think that they're going to be taken away from me. Or, you know, if you've got a student and they do, they bomb on a test,

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Chris
 and those kinds of things, they get a B and they've been an LA student. And this is a real

[00:32:50:21 - 00:32:55:11]
Chris
 practical life. Or you take how you look,

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Chris
 you know, and now I know I'm treading on thin ice here, but this is very, very, very practical. If we're just devastated because our appearance isn't up to snuff or our appearance goes down the hill or whatever.

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Chris
 And again, it's well and good to, you know, to be concerned about that or for that to impact us. But if it's just like,

[00:33:30:00 - 00:33:43:17]
Chris
 again, devastating to us, then I think, and I just want to say this again, repeat it. I'm not throwing stones here because I have these on my own and every, like, everybody has them.

[00:33:45:14 - 00:33:50:18]
Chris
 And the question, honestly, is whether we're going to be willing to look in the mirror and we're going to be willing to,

[00:33:51:18 - 00:34:10:12]
Chris
 with the Spirit's help and maybe with the help of other people, to identify what those are so that we can really get to, you know, the next thing is that what steps can we take. But the first step is admitting that you have them. The second step is becoming aware of what they are.

[00:34:11:18 - 00:34:46:21]
Chris
 And then in some ways, those two things are going to get you a long way down the road in this, just being humble and being aware of what they are. Because then when you're aware, "Oh, okay, now I can see what's going on," and then we can start to begin to counteract that. And then the next step or steps really have to do with learning more and more deeply what it means to have the righteousness of Christ and how valuable that is. And, you know,

[00:34:49:04 - 00:35:03:19]
Chris
 Paul didn't write Philippians at the beginning of his Christian life. It took him a while. I think we had this idea that he was there all of a sudden. He was like this, you know, he was this fully mature believer. And actually, if you read the book of Acts, you find out that that's not the case.

[00:35:06:03 - 00:35:10:05]
Chris
 And so, it takes a process, but it can be had.

[00:35:12:09 - 00:35:21:19]
Brenton
 You said the Holy Spirit performs His convicting work through us. And we actually had a question submitted that I think is relevant to this.

[00:35:23:04 - 00:35:39:05]
Brenton
 He said, "What kinds of problems do Christians get into when they try to convict people rather than leaving that part to the Holy Spirit? Like, what's our role versus His, and how are we blessed when we stay in our lane?"

[00:35:41:15 - 00:35:45:17]
Chris
 Yeah, this is a really good question, and I think an important one.

[00:35:47:10 - 00:36:07:17]
Chris
 And yet, it's also a challenging issue to try to wade through because it's not like we just sit back and say, "I'm gonna kind of let go and let the Holy Spirit do it." And yet, at the same time, how do we not be overly aggressive

[00:36:09:03 - 00:36:11:01]
Chris
 in regard to that?

[00:36:12:11 - 00:36:24:18]
Chris
 And so, I think we can easily fall on either side of this issue in an unhealthy

[00:36:26:02 - 00:36:53:21]
Chris
 way, because we do have to share with people what God's Word says, and we do, in particular, need to share the gospel. And maybe that's where I would start is, like, are we sharing the gospel, and that's really our focus rather than bringing out people's sin?

[00:36:58:07 - 00:37:07:00]
Chris
 Like, in other words, am I focused on the sin, the specific sin, or am I like, "Hey, you really need Jesus?"

[00:37:08:07 - 00:37:13:15]
Chris
 And I think we gotta,

[00:37:15:20 - 00:37:23:09]
Chris
 and many times I think we gotta allow the Holy Spirit to be the one to get into the specifics, and we need to stay in the general a little bit more.

[00:37:24:21 - 00:37:30:21]
Chris
 And then, probably the most important thing is, like, what is our motivation?

[00:37:32:03 - 00:37:32:10]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:37:34:03 - 00:37:55:18]
Chris
 Is there a motivation to actually see people turn and repent and turn to faith in Jesus, or to believe in Him more, and whether, depending upon their believer, or is it just that we want to point out, like, we are the sin police. Right.

[00:37:57:02 - 00:37:57:07]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:37:57:07 - 00:38:08:18]
Chris
 And we need to recognize that we can all too easily do this, because in pointing out people's sin, it makes us feel better about ourselves. It's actually a means to righteousness.

[00:38:09:23 - 00:38:11:07]
Chris
 I just tried to point that out on Sunday.

[00:38:12:10 - 00:38:35:00]
Chris
 We feel better about ourselves by pointing out other people's sins condemning or criticizing them. And so, we've gotta be really brutally honest with ourselves. Am I doing this because I'm concerned for the people that I'm talking to, the person that I'm talking to, and what they need,

[00:38:36:07 - 00:38:41:08]
Chris
 and to see them, though, restored?

[00:38:42:13 - 00:38:59:11]
Chris
 Mm-hmm. Or am I just doing it because it makes me feel better about myself, and I'm all for truth, and all of this. And I think Galatians 6.1 is so important here. Paul says, "Those of you who are spiritual," which just basically means those of you who have the Spirit,

[00:39:01:00 - 00:39:45:20]
Chris
 when we see someone caught trapped in a sin, we should restore them gently. And he says, "But be careful so that you don't find yourself in the same place." So, if you see somebody who's sinning, we don't ignore it. I mean, it's just don't walk away saying, "No big deal, not my job, not my role." No, but we seek to restore them, and we do it in a spirit of gentleness. Being careful of our own sin, that we don't fall on this, amen. Or Jesus says, "Take the log out of your eye before you try to get the speck out of your neighbor's eye." So,

[00:39:46:22 - 00:39:50:14]
Chris
 I think we can't just sit back and say,

[00:39:51:20 - 00:39:56:05]
Chris
 "Holy Spirit, He's got to do it." On his own,

[00:39:57:06 - 00:39:57:23]
Chris
 and he does,

[00:39:59:04 - 00:40:00:23]
Chris
 sometimes, but that doesn't

[00:40:02:02 - 00:40:16:17]
Chris
 mean we don't have a role to play. But at the same time, what is the point here? It's not condemnation. It's conviction for the point of either salvation or sanctification, if I believe or so.

[00:40:18:11 - 00:40:24:19]
Chris
 But I just see, I had another part of my sermon that actually cut out on Sunday,

[00:40:25:20 - 00:40:35:08]
Chris
 which was kind of the side point under the concerning sin, because I don't believe in me, where I was just talking about this very, very issue,

[00:40:37:01 - 00:40:50:23]
Chris
 where we just get focused on what people are doing. Here's what I was talking about. It's like, we need to make sure that our focus isn't on trying to get the alcoholic to stop drinking,

[00:40:52:09 - 00:41:08:13]
Chris
 the drug addict to stop taking drugs. The porn addict to stop looking at porn. The person in the homosexual lifestyle, stop living that lifestyle. That's not the point. The point is trusting Jesus.

[00:41:10:03 - 00:41:29:16]
Chris
 I'm not saying that those aren't concerns and we don't address those issues, but sometimes we focus so much on those things. We need to recognize that at the end of the day, if an alcoholic stops drinking, but they don't know Jesus, they still have their biggest problem by a country mile.

[00:41:33:03 - 00:41:40:22]
Chris
 You haven't accomplished much, if that's all you get. Well, but literally, now you're getting me on, this was going to be much shorter, but

[00:41:42:00 - 00:42:00:04]
Chris
 I run into this all of this thinking time, is that we just get so, how do I get this person to stop doing this or to start thinking this way or to stop living this way, or I'm so upset by what they're doing over here?

[00:42:01:10 - 00:42:08:23]
Chris
 And the concern is legitimate. They're most of the time very unhealthy, sinful things.

[00:42:11:01 - 00:42:46:06]
Chris
 But the world doesn't need to stop this, this, and this so much as they need to start believing Jesus. And that too will go hand in hand, but it's like, which comes first? And what comes first is Jesus. And here's the reality is that once they believe in Jesus, and they have the Holy Spirit, and now it's back to the question here, now the Holy Spirit can really get to work on them.

[00:42:46:06 - 00:42:46:17]
Brenton
 Right.

[00:42:47:19 - 00:43:09:01]
Brenton
 Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we could keep talking about this for a while, but I think we'll just leave it here. Okay. It's a good conversation. I think there's a lot to be had out of that, but I think you covered it well. So, all right. Well, I really appreciate the conversation today, and thanks for your work on the sermon.

[00:43:10:07 - 00:43:13:09]
Brenton
 We will be back next week, I believe, with the clay.

[00:43:14:13 - 00:43:24:08]
Brenton
 So, looking forward to that. If you do have any questions, please email us, ask at furtherpodcast.com, and we will talk to you next week.