[01:00:00:00 - 01:00:10:00]
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[01:00:13:03 - 01:00:17:12]
Chris
 That's why we've got to know God's word. And my theology really, truly does matter.

[01:00:19:10 - 01:00:38:22]
Chris
 Why I love to preach God's word and why I try to do it so passionately, because it's not just facts or things that don't really matter to the day-to-day of our lives. They literally matter in everything we do, every environment we live, every relationship that we are in.

[01:00:38:22 - 01:00:42:00]
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[01:00:42:00 - 01:00:44:22]
Brenton
 Welcome back to Further. I am Brenton Grimm.

[01:00:45:22 - 01:00:46:22]
Brenton
 Chris Carr, how are you doing?

[01:00:46:22 - 01:00:49:19]
Chris
 Doing great, because I've got a special guest with me today.

[01:00:49:19 - 01:00:51:06]
Brenton
 You're doing the intro. Go for it.

[01:00:51:06 - 01:00:58:13]
Chris
 Introducer. Yes. So my complementary partner is here with me today. So welcome to Eva.

[01:00:58:13 - 01:00:59:21]
Eva
 Thank you.

[01:00:59:21 - 01:01:07:09]
Chris
 Welcome, Eva. I thought since she wrote the sermon on Sunday that we should actually have her be here with us.

[01:01:07:09 - 01:01:14:04]
Eva
 And there are some I might take credit for. I don't know if I'm taking credit for. Anybody that knows me knows I did not write that one.

[01:01:14:04 - 01:01:22:19]
Chris
 Yeah, well, let me just make it clear. Eva does not write my sermons. But she did review this one for sure.

[01:01:24:00 - 01:01:38:09]
Brenton
 Yeah, great. Well, looking forward to a conversation today. This might have been our record for questions coming in. So I'm going to try to weave them through as well as possible. But this one might go long, too. So we'll see.

[01:01:40:02 - 01:01:44:11]
Brenton
 I want to start with just where you started. So early on, you gave three affirmations.

[01:01:45:14 - 01:01:51:15]
Brenton
 God's design is good. Sin has corrupted it. And Christ's followers must hold truth and grace together.

[01:01:53:12 - 01:01:57:17]
Brenton
 Why were these so foundational to the topic we're discussing here?

[01:01:59:00 - 01:02:08:18]
Chris
 Well, we've got some very sensitive topics that can cause a lot of consternation, confusion,

[01:02:10:03 - 01:02:39:12]
Chris
 concern, and bring a lot of questions. So I think it's often very possible that our emotions will get to us a little bit. And we'll start to react emotionally in a sense that will keep us from actually being able to be grounded in some basic biblical principles and truths that can guide us through these things,

[01:02:40:17 - 01:02:45:22]
Chris
 especially given the cultural moment that we're in around literally all three of these things.

[01:02:48:09 - 01:03:07:00]
Chris
 And I think without these three things, we're kind of just left kind of floating in the wind to try to figure out where we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to land and how we're supposed to practically apply the things that are very much a part of life.

[01:03:08:05 - 01:03:08:10]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[01:03:09:23 - 01:03:19:13]
Brenton
 Maybe I'll throw this out to both of you. But why do you think that these topics specifically are as sensitive as they are now?

[01:03:23:03 - 01:03:24:02]
Chris
 Eva, what do you think?

[01:03:29:23 - 01:03:34:06]
Eva
 I would have to land on initially that,

[01:03:37:05 - 01:03:53:21]
Eva
 much like in my prayer at the end of the service, that while we may believe that God's design is good and we trust in His goodness and the big things and the ultimate things,

[01:03:55:14 - 01:04:07:18]
Eva
 it's very often difficult to see that day-to-day minutia things. It's more difficult to believe that God is good in--

[01:04:09:00 - 01:04:51:02]
Eva
 if a husband is berating his wife. I mean, none of us would say that's good. But you know what I'm saying? From the wife's perspective, that good could come even from really painful situations. It's difficult to see that it is for my good. How can this situation-- and that example, of course, I gave was an extreme one. But you take of the mundane and the routine that a young mom is dealing with. And I'm just taking it from the woman's perspective. But it's hard to visualize a really good thing for me that God is doing in, like, if this is my role,

[01:04:52:15 - 01:04:57:22]
Eva
 why do I get the nasty role? It can seem like that.

[01:04:59:10 - 01:05:34:18]
Eva
 I want the role that leaves the house and has adult interaction and can go get a lunch with a coworker. I want that role. Instead, I've got people puking up on me and changing. You see what I'm saying? It's hard to see because you have to have such a biblical framework that you can step back and, like, OK, God is doing something even in my own heart to cultivate servanthood and compassion. But it's hard to step back.

[01:05:36:22 - 01:05:55:02]
Eva
 For those of us ladies that feel like a sense of accomplishment is important, and even if it's not for affirmation but just for your own, like, sense of accomplishment, and day after day after day to not feel that way,

[01:05:56:20 - 01:05:58:08]
Eva
 it's hard to see that that's for our good.

[01:05:59:09 - 01:06:01:20]
Eva
 And so I just tackled that first one. But that would be--

[01:06:03:04 - 01:06:07:04]
Eva
 it's hard to see it for what it is and what God might be doing.

[01:06:11:04 - 01:06:11:20]
Chris
 Yeah, I mean, I think--

[01:06:12:21 - 01:06:17:06]
Chris
 my point of this output, gender is fundamental to our identity.

[01:06:19:21 - 01:06:29:00]
Chris
 I'm not saying that our gender is our identity, but our gender is tied to our identity. So identity is--

[01:06:30:05 - 01:06:49:00]
Chris
 it's something that none of us can get away from and that we all wrestle with, whether we're aware of that or not. We know from Genesis chapter 3 that God tells us that there is going to be conflict between men and women, specifically between husbands and wives,

[01:06:51:00 - 01:06:52:23]
Chris
 because it says--

[01:06:54:08 - 01:06:59:11]
Chris
 God says to Eve, your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.

[01:07:00:12 - 01:07:01:02]
Chris
 And so that--

[01:07:02:05 - 01:07:21:12]
Chris
 we need to understand that. And look at these topics, especially in terms of roles in the marriage relationship, underneath that truth that God just says, this is the way that it's going to be. There's going to be tension there.

[01:07:22:15 - 01:07:39:06]
Chris
 That doesn't mean that we have to-- as actually the rest of Genesis 3 tells us, it doesn't mean that God does not have a cure for that and an answer for that. And it doesn't mean that that's where we need to live. But that's going to be something that's going to be a battle until the Lord returns.

[01:07:41:12 - 01:08:38:20]
Chris
 And so we just need to recognize that. And then when we talk about sex, I mean, I don't even know that I need to go into this too much, but we all know how powerful it is, in almost a way that is beyond the understanding and description about how much that just impacts our lives and how-- of a powerful influence, it holds sway on humanity. So we just-- with these topics that are right front and center in our lives and in the world that we live in, we need to know and be grounded in what the Bible has to say about this so that we have a place to go back to as we are trying to find our way through this life and the challenges that we face and how we can experience

[01:08:39:21 - 01:08:47:17]
Chris
 true flourishing and God's good design, which, as I said, is not only good, but for our good.

[01:08:47:17 - 01:08:48:17]
Brenton
 Yeah,

[01:08:49:18 - 01:09:14:04]
Brenton
 so it's essentially our-- like, it's us recognizing that God is-- He designed something good and that it's our flesh pushing back against it, right? I mean, Eva, as you described that, you recognize that what you're doing is right and good and profitable, but your flesh is still warring against those things, right?

[01:09:14:04 - 01:09:17:04]
Eva
 Yeah, and just to be clear, I don't know that I recognized it in the moment.

[01:09:17:04 - 01:09:18:03]
Brenton
 Sure, yeah.

[01:09:18:03 - 01:09:31:19]
Eva
 That's years and years down the road where I was like, oh, yeah, that was at play there. But you think about our culture now, of course, is different than it was when our older kids were younger.

[01:09:33:04 - 01:09:36:06]
Eva
 And you think about our culture now, and I think the big--

[01:09:37:12 - 01:10:05:10]
Eva
 when you're wrestling with those things, our culture now says, oh, you don't love doing the whole stay-at-home mom thing, the nurturing thing. That's because that's not what you're supposed to be doing. And so there's this wrestle, even in the church, like, oh, I'm supposed to love this stay-at-home mom thing, if that's where you are in your season. And then if you don't, there's this--

[01:10:06:16 - 01:10:21:04]
Eva
 it's a dismantling of your entire thought process, like, oh, then I'm not believing the Bible. Oh, oh, I actually don't trust God enough. It's this whole, again, identity struggle

[01:10:22:06 - 01:10:43:15]
Eva
 because we are not, of course, of the world. We say that, but yet the culture screaming at us all the time, and it starts to seep into our biblical worldview. And we all know that, but it is a battle of really epic proportions, in my opinion,

[01:10:45:04 - 01:10:47:11]
Eva
 just speaking for women in general.

[01:10:48:21 - 01:11:01:06]
Chris
 I would just summarize it. If we don't have our grounding in these three truths, then I think we're left to the whim of what culture is going to say, what our flesh is going to want.

[01:11:03:00 - 01:11:13:16]
Chris
 And then we also are-- there's another danger that I try to point out is that we can be taught incorrectly by the church on these things, too.

[01:11:15:00 - 01:11:45:20]
Chris
 And when at church, I say-- not that the church is a whole but Christians. Like, we can get off course on that, even in listening to other fellow Christians or teachers or things like that. So that's why I wanted to stress so much that sin has corrupted it, and that corruption includes in the church. It's not just in the world.

[01:11:46:23 - 01:11:47:03]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[01:11:48:07 - 01:11:48:12]
Brenton
 OK.

[01:11:50:07 - 01:12:02:17]
Brenton
 You talked for a little bit about the importance of holding to biblical truth on gender and sex while also showing compassion. This is one question that came to me immediately after the service on Sunday.

[01:12:04:09 - 01:12:14:22]
Brenton
 I think like a lot of what we're going to talk about today, it's just a lot of practical stuff outflowing of what you talked about on Sunday. And so this is an issue that has been--

[01:12:17:15 - 01:12:28:18]
Brenton
 it's come up a lot, but what should this compassion look like? And the person that talked to me about it is specifically talking about pronouns and weddings.

[01:12:29:18 - 01:12:36:03]
Brenton
 How should we think about these kind of hot button topics that have been floating around for a while now?

[01:12:37:06 - 01:12:44:00]
Chris
 Well, this is difficult because I'm a little hesitant to get into specifics.

[01:12:46:10 - 01:12:52:23]
Chris
 And that's because there are different circumstances in different situations that--

[01:12:54:06 - 01:13:15:13]
Chris
 I think when we give just blanket statements on some of these things, it can actually not be helpful. Because what might apply very clearly in some cases and doesn't apply in other cases, then there's a third-- does it or does it not? And what's the situation and all those things?

[01:13:17:21 - 01:14:09:03]
Chris
 And so this is why, as a believers, we need to have discernment. We need to understand that we each individually have the Holy Spirit. And so it needs to be a matter of for us not to just look to our pastors or to other Christians to tell us what we should do and what the answers are, but where we should seek the Lord and certainly counsel and then try to really work through and to process that. So I don't think I'm probably going to get into all the specific examples of how that might apply. Maybe I'll start by saying, in general, to go a little bit further,

[01:14:10:03 - 01:14:31:20]
Chris
 when I say in about how of compassion for, say, a transgender person, what I think compassion looks like is that we recognize that this person is struggling with confusion. They're confused, very likely.

[01:14:33:01 - 01:14:40:14]
Chris
 They probably have some deep hurt and pain that has led them to this point. They've probably, in some place, been mistreated.

[01:14:42:17 - 01:15:02:18]
Chris
 And at the end of the day, are hurting and lost. And so we want to have compassion for the place that they find themselves in from really a spiritual standpoint, maybe a mental and emotional standpoint.

[01:15:04:20 - 01:15:12:03]
Chris
 And as we maybe would with somebody who is struggling with a different kind of sin,

[01:15:14:21 - 01:15:21:22]
Chris
 there's a tendency today for us in these situations to have either a yuck approach or a yay approach.

[01:15:24:11 - 01:15:32:05]
Chris
 We've got yay that's great, it's wonderful, it's good. And then on the other hand, it's yuck. And what I mean by that is just like growth.

[01:15:34:00 - 01:15:41:18]
Chris
 And I think the Christian approach is much more nuanced than that, that we recognize that this is not God's design.

[01:15:43:03 - 01:15:51:12]
Chris
 This is not what God intended, and it's not what God wants for this person. And yet they're still-- and I would take this back--

[01:15:53:03 - 01:15:54:17]
Chris
 they're still made in the image of God.

[01:15:56:05 - 01:16:21:23]
Chris
 Even somebody who has had a surgery in an attempt to change their gender-- and I say an attempt because they have body parts cut off, they're taking hormones and different things. And they're still made in the image of God, which still means that they have value and worth. They haven't done anything to devalue their--

[01:16:22:23 - 01:16:29:00]
Chris
 for their value and worth to go away. It's still there because they're still made in the image of God. It's harder to--

[01:16:30:02 - 01:16:31:05]
Chris
 maybe harder to see,

[01:16:33:11 - 01:16:33:22]
Chris
 for sure.

[01:16:35:01 - 01:17:00:16]
Chris
 So when I think having compassion, it's like this is a hurting person, a lost person, someone who's likely to consider a lot of pain. And so how do I try to relate to them in such a way that they're going to feel-- hopefully, they're going to feel like I'm at least attempting to care for them.

[01:17:02:10 - 01:17:29:01]
Chris
 And in the midst of that, also showing compassion means that we're going to live in the truth, and we're going to seek to share the truth. So there's no actual compassion if we're just affirming everybody. That's where this-- I mentioned empathy. That's the way the world approaches. Empathy means you just like, I'm going to enter into this person's experience, and I'm going to affirm their experience. Not only that they're having that experience,

[01:17:30:22 - 01:17:32:07]
Chris
 but I'm going to affirm that it's good.

[01:17:33:17 - 01:17:43:20]
Chris
 And I think compassion can be affirming that they are having that. That is what they are feeling, thinking, struggling with.

[01:17:45:00 - 01:17:48:08]
Chris
 But compassion is not actually saying, well, that's actually--

[01:17:49:09 - 01:17:56:21]
Chris
 that's good, and that's the way that you should say it. Like, compassion is your answer. So I use one example. Personally,

[01:17:57:21 - 01:17:59:15]
Chris
 I don't think we should use--

[01:18:00:23 - 01:18:10:11]
Chris
 I don't think we should use pronouns for people. Like, if someone is a biological female, I don't think we should call her a he.

[01:18:11:15 - 01:18:19:22]
Chris
 Now, I do think, depending upon what your relationship is with that person, can also impact how stringent you are about that.

[01:18:21:01 - 01:18:21:04]
Chris
 OK?

[01:18:22:23 - 01:18:35:15]
Chris
 And so that's where the nuance comes in. But I think that to call someone a different gender than what God has made them is not to live in light of the truth.

[01:18:37:23 - 01:18:49:23]
Chris
 So that is a little bit easier than maybe some of the other ones that would come up, depending upon those circumstances. And yet, I think as Christians, we also got to be careful that we don't--

[01:18:51:10 - 01:19:02:10]
Chris
 we're not dogmatic in saying you should like telling other Christians about what they should or should not do around these issues. I think you got to be really careful about that.

[01:19:04:17 - 01:19:13:00]
Chris
 And I don't know if you remember a few years ago where Aliser Begg got on all the hot water because of his advice about, you know,

[01:19:14:22 - 01:19:16:09]
Chris
 I believe it was a gay wedding.

[01:19:17:11 - 01:19:19:07]
Eva
 And-- He was a family member, I think, to the friends.

[01:19:19:07 - 01:19:27:19]
Chris
 It was like to go to his grandson. Like, I think I disagreed with his counsel.

[01:19:28:19 - 01:19:38:09]
Chris
 But what I disagreed with more was the outrage from fellow Christians at a man who'd been a faithful pastor for 40 years.

[01:19:39:14 - 01:19:43:20]
Chris
 And it was just, personally,

[01:19:45:04 - 01:19:46:02]
Chris
 I think

[01:19:47:06 - 01:20:00:19]
Chris
 God is more concerned with Christian hypocrisy than he is with how we are trying-- those of us who are trying to figure out how to show compassion to people.

[01:20:02:09 - 01:20:15:02]
Chris
 There's a passage where Jesus says to the religious leaders, you know-- well, he's actually talking about some cities where he had gone and preached.

[01:20:16:09 - 01:20:24:17]
Chris
 And they had rejected him. He says, well, well, to you, because it'll be better for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than it's going to be for you.

[01:20:27:03 - 01:20:28:11]
Chris
 And these are religious people.

[01:20:29:23 - 01:20:49:14]
Chris
 And so maybe we're off a little bit of what you're saying. But again, I want to be clear here. I probably disagree with Aliser Begg and the advice that he gave. And I honestly don't think it was wise for him to talk about that on his-- I believe it was his podcast is what it was. I just like--

[01:20:51:02 - 01:21:13:18]
Chris
 I think his counsel to this grandmother-- I believe his grandmother. OK. OK, that's the one-on-one conversation. But to share that where it's going out to all these people-- not wise, probably don't even agree with the council. But the backlash over that, where he's being removed from radio stations and all.

[01:21:15:03 - 01:21:25:13]
Chris
 And what you see is just, I think, it's on call form. So I don't know that I'm fully answering the question.

[01:21:25:13 - 01:21:29:05]
Brenton
 No, you covered a lot there. I think there's--

[01:21:31:02 - 01:21:46:04]
Brenton
 one thing I was really appreciative of on Sunday was that you mentioned empathy and said what you did about it. Because I think that it is-- that's the easy route, especially for us who live in this culture of--

[01:21:47:11 - 01:21:56:21]
Brenton
 it's hard to talk about these things, especially with someone that's in it, and that we see is in sin. And it's a lot easier to have empathy and to agree with them.

[01:21:58:21 - 01:22:27:20]
Brenton
 But the end goal for us needs to be repentance. So we are seeking the person in this position to repent of this lifestyle and to change. And that takes boldness. And so it is compassion. It is understanding that they're still made in the image of God. They have inherent value. But we still need to be bold in giving them Jesus. But Jesus is Lord.

[01:22:27:20 - 01:22:31:18]
Chris
 Yeah. Well, one advantage that I have in this

[01:22:33:16 - 01:22:50:16]
Chris
 is I have personal examples. You know, like of people who are either transgender or struggling with transgender or who are in homosexual relationships or would claim to be gay.

[01:22:52:11 - 01:23:05:16]
Chris
 And or I have parents who are asking for counsel and like, how do we-- and why I say that that actually helps is because it's-- when we talk about it in the abstract,

[01:23:07:14 - 01:23:16:19]
Chris
 answers tend to be really easy. It's another thing when you actually know somebody and you can put a face to an issue.

[01:23:18:00 - 01:23:22:15]
Chris
 That, in my opinion, changes the dynamic more often than not.

[01:23:24:12 - 01:23:33:22]
Eva
 I would just say the litany of like, what about this? What about this? What about this? What about this situation?

[01:23:35:02 - 01:23:37:17]
Eva
 I think in our-- we live in a--

[01:23:38:20 - 01:23:56:05]
Eva
 if I want to get healthy, I don't want to research. I really, at my heart of hearts, want somebody to just write out, at 902, Eva, I need you to eat this thing. At 928, go do this for your exercise.

[01:23:57:09 - 01:24:27:18]
Eva
 That's the mentality. And we even in parenting and marriage, healthy marriages, I don't want to take a generalized view and go to the word and actually pray about something. That's going to take too much effort and too much time. And I'm not going to get a quick result. And we live in that, even in this. I want to how to-- if I handle this situation this way, here's the result I'll get.

[01:24:28:20 - 01:24:34:02]
Eva
 And step by step-- and Chris loves the word nuance. I mean, it's true.

[01:24:36:00 - 01:24:43:05]
Eva
 Every situation may call for a different approach, at least to some degree.

[01:24:44:23 - 01:25:03:11]
Eva
 But every situation calls for us to be discerning and thoughtful and biblically centered. And that might look different, even though the base of it the foundation of it should be the same.

[01:25:03:11 - 01:25:24:20]
Brenton
 Yeah, I think what you said is also can be part of the danger too, that we have this so many options to go to to get a quick answer. And so as much as we can keep that in-house, and I think we would want people to come and seek counsel at the church first.

[01:25:26:05 - 01:25:29:21]
Brenton
 And so yeah, that's-- and hopefully that is happening.

[01:25:29:21 - 01:25:56:17]
Eva
 It's great in our day and age that we have-- I sound like I'm 90 years old, but I'm kind of am. But anyway, we have the resources that we didn't have and weren't available. And yet, we have started, in my opinion, to put our whole counsel, our whole landing spot is on all these resources.

[01:25:58:17 - 01:26:36:11]
Eva
 And frankly, just like me trying to eat a Mediterranean diet or anti-inflammatory, you're like, wow, we're evil. We're going off tangent. But this resource says, avoid these 10 things. The next resource I pull up says, those things are great for you, but just don't use these things. And it's the same thing in all of the-- a lot of different resources is great, but we have to-- it all comes back to using discernment and having the Bible be our final. And frankly, allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us. Yeah.

[01:26:38:15 - 01:26:46:04]
Brenton
 All right, well, we're going to get into our first submitted question here. I guess the one on Sunday didn't count, so this is the first one.

[01:26:47:17 - 01:26:52:12]
Brenton
 What is the spiritual part of sex? What does it mean in 1 Corinthians 6, 16,

[01:26:53:16 - 01:27:11:13]
Brenton
 when he says, "Do you not know that he who unites himself with the prostitute is one with her in body, for it is said, the two will become one flesh?" So what-- like, you alluded to this on Sunday, a little bit of the spiritual aspect of one flesh, and go.

[01:27:11:13 - 01:27:15:12]
Chris
 Well, I'm going to be pretty quick on this, but a little context is helpful.

[01:27:17:11 - 01:27:43:05]
Chris
 The Corinthians lived in a-- literally in a city where every night about 1,000 prostitutes from the temple of Aphrodite would come down out of the mountain and would walk down into the city streets to ply their trade. But it was also that Aphrodite, like you worshiped at her temple by having sex with prostitutes, OK? So--

[01:27:44:11 - 01:27:54:16]
Chris
 and the Corinthian believers, that's the background that they came out of when they were saved. Paul goes to Corinth, preaches the gospel, and people start getting saved out of this. Well,

[01:27:56:05 - 01:27:57:04]
Chris
 we think that--

[01:27:58:18 - 01:28:18:20]
Chris
 we struggle with problems. I mean, just imagine the baggage that's there. And so even after they had come to know Christ and had been believers for a little while, there's some of the people in the church, the men in the church are still having sex with prostitutes. And so Paul's saying, don't you understand

[01:28:20:06 - 01:28:32:01]
Chris
 that when you are yining yourself with your prostitute, it's not just a physical act. It's a spiritual act because you are becoming one with her because sex is about union.

[01:28:33:03 - 01:28:39:18]
Chris
 It's not just a physical union. There's a spiritual union, which in the Two Will Become One Flesh is the quote from Genesis 2.24,

[01:28:40:20 - 01:29:07:00]
Chris
 where God ordains marriage. And as I pointed out, it's not just a sexual union. That's what consummates and brings the union together, just kind of ratifies the union, so to speak. But it's more than that. It is a union designed to be in every way. And so Paul's saying, you Corinthians think, this is no big deal,

[01:29:08:05 - 01:30:03:12]
Chris
 which is what our culture says today. It's just a physical act. Why are you making such a big deal about it? But it's not just a physical act because there's a very real spiritual component to it. And so that's why Paul's saying, there's a lot more going on here and why he actually goes on to say in verse 18, he who commits sexual immodality sins against his own body. Because there's a spiritual-- there's not a physical reality there, but there's also a spiritual component to it. And if we're really honest and we really look at it, we can see how when two people have sex, it does connect them in a way that is not like-- there is harm that is done there. There's a damage that when people--

[01:30:04:12 - 01:30:18:10]
Chris
 I mean, research will tell you that the more people you have sex with, the harder it is to actually connect with someone because you're literally uniting and breaking apart. Uniting and breaking apart.

[01:30:19:15 - 01:30:23:15]
Chris
 And so I mean, I could go on and on there, but that's a quick answer to the question.

[01:30:23:15 - 01:30:24:08]
Brenton
 OK.

[01:30:25:22 - 01:30:35:13]
Brenton
 Another one that said, what sexual sins does culture and even believers push away as if it is not sexual sin?

[01:30:37:06 - 01:30:47:03]
Chris
 OK, I think I will answer this by talking about a part of my message that I actually deleted because my wife recommended that I do so.

[01:30:48:22 - 01:30:49:23]
Brenton
 See, you still get a chance.

[01:30:51:08 - 01:30:55:00]
Eva
 There's like-- there's nine year old, eight year old, nine year old sitting in there.

[01:30:55:00 - 01:30:58:20]
Chris
 She was rightly concerned about--

[01:31:00:06 - 01:31:17:10]
Chris
 I was going to be fairly specific, and we do have some younger children at times, or most weeks, if not every week, we have some in there. And so I would say that this includes pornography.

[01:31:19:17 - 01:31:21:02]
Chris
 It includes masturbation.

[01:31:23:10 - 01:31:30:20]
Chris
 And those would be the two big-- I mean, obviously, homosexual sex is there, but maybe that's understood.

[01:31:32:12 - 01:31:40:10]
Chris
 But it also-- that culture pushes away would certainly be pornography. Pornography is either just accepted or it's a laugh dad.

[01:31:42:06 - 01:31:50:06]
Chris
 It's quite often, I think, we see in TV shows, streaming. It's just a laugh dad, some guys,

[01:31:51:08 - 01:31:51:16]
Chris
 whatever,

[01:31:53:00 - 01:32:00:12]
Chris
 or females, even now more and more. And so it's like-- so that's like it's not a big deal, not an issue.

[01:32:01:18 - 01:32:19:05]
Chris
 And then the masturbation issue, which is becoming more and more of a problem, a lot of times tied to pornography. So those would be the primary ones that I would say. Of course, from our culture, they think--

[01:32:21:10 - 01:32:23:22]
Chris
 marriage and sex don't need to go together at all.

[01:32:25:17 - 01:32:32:07]
Chris
 So they would put very few limits, as long as nobody's getting hurt.

[01:32:34:03 - 01:32:36:21]
Chris
 As long as that's consensual and nobody's getting hurt.

[01:32:38:22 - 01:32:41:07]
Chris
 As I've already pointed out, somebody's getting hurt,

[01:32:42:08 - 01:32:45:06]
Chris
 regardless of whether we understand that to be the case or not.

[01:32:46:19 - 01:32:56:07]
Eva
 There's also a-- I said I wasn't going to speak on this, but just to add to that what might believers excuse away part.

[01:32:58:00 - 01:33:02:07]
Eva
 But what's the term? Cohabitating, living together before you're married.

[01:33:03:18 - 01:33:16:17]
Eva
 I've heard believers that, well, we already made a commitment by getting engaged in that situation. So we're already made a commitment. And if it was before God,

[01:33:17:23 - 01:33:24:05]
Eva
 then yeah. I've just heard a lot of, again, excusing away or--

[01:33:26:15 - 01:33:26:20]
Eva
 yeah.

[01:33:26:20 - 01:33:28:00]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[01:33:29:20 - 01:33:37:16]
Brenton
 Yeah, absolutely. OK, moving on into the marriage portion of this, which we're already half hour in, so we got time, right?

[01:33:40:07 - 01:33:54:18]
Brenton
 First of all, what would you say are the competing views of complementarianism? That was kind of what you put forth on Sunday. What other views are there, and what are the main differences between them?

[01:33:54:18 - 01:33:59:21]
Chris
 OK, so let me begin by saying I didn't use the term complementarianism.

[01:34:01:18 - 01:34:04:14]
Chris
 And no, this isn't exactly an important point.

[01:34:06:01 - 01:34:06:14]
Chris
 I don't--

[01:34:07:16 - 01:34:20:15]
Chris
 and you know, Britton, by now. I think it frustrates you at times. But I'm not one for labels, and I try to shy away from it. And the reason for this is because people

[01:34:22:13 - 01:34:34:06]
Chris
 have, in their mind, complementarianism means a certain thing that I don't necessarily want to align myself with.

[01:34:35:17 - 01:34:45:01]
Chris
 So I understand what you're saying. Like, in general, I very intentionally didn't say complementarianism, but rather complementarity.

[01:34:46:03 - 01:35:36:10]
Chris
 And it does matter to me because there is some complementarianism that I would not agree with. And what people do in these situations is they take a label, they smack it on somebody, throw it on somebody, and they use that to argue against them when that's not actually what their position is. The two main ones are egalitarianism and complementarianism. Those are the two ends, kind of the spectrum. I think there's a continuum from egalitarianism to complementarianism. And so it's really, I think, again, challenging when you try to use-- at times use those labels. But for the sake of discussion,

[01:35:37:15 - 01:35:55:01]
Chris
 egalitarianism would essentially say that there should be no distinctions in roles in marriage and in the church between males and females that pretty much anything a male can do, a female can do, and by can do, should be able to do, not can do, like physically or intellectually.

[01:35:56:09 - 01:36:05:00]
Chris
 But a woman can hold any role and a man can hold any role. So in the church, egalitarianism would say that women can be elders and pastors.

[01:36:06:06 - 01:36:24:06]
Chris
 And just like men could be, and there should be no distinction there. Complementarianism generally would say that there are distinctions in the home and in the church into what roles men and women can play.

[01:36:26:20 - 01:36:38:12]
Chris
 But there's even distinctions in regards to exactly what that means and what that looks like there. So yeah.

[01:36:39:13 - 01:36:51:17]
Chris
 So yes, the position that I was putting forth is certainly in the complementarian side of the argument or the disagreement.

[01:36:51:17 - 01:37:07:16]
Brenton
 Well, and this is where labels get-- I think going back to what you said, people are going to attribute different things to those labels. I would like to spend some time before we wrap up on just the two different roles that you talked about on Sunday.

[01:37:09:10 - 01:37:19:05]
Brenton
 One of the things you said was that what is universal is that husbands are to lead in the partnership and wives are to affirm, support, and partner with him in his leadership.

[01:37:20:16 - 01:37:37:05]
Brenton
 First, the husband's role. You brought up Ephesians 5, which says, for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church. Practically, what does this headship or leadership look like? What are his responsibilities?

[01:37:39:08 - 01:37:42:18]
Brenton
 What's the authority that he has inside the family?

[01:37:43:22 - 01:37:47:07]
Chris
 I think responsibility is a good word. I think that's what it is.

[01:37:48:17 - 01:37:53:01]
Chris
 He's responsible for the family before God.

[01:37:54:20 - 01:38:02:22]
Chris
 And I think that changes it from this mentality, like I'm in charge,

[01:38:05:10 - 01:38:07:03]
Chris
 to more about,

[01:38:09:00 - 01:38:19:22]
Chris
 this is my responsibility to see-- I just keep going back to that cultivation actually occurs that the family is cultivated and that we are using

[01:38:21:00 - 01:38:57:01]
Chris
 our gifts and abilities and our family for the sake of accomplishing God's purposes here on this earth. And so that might mean that there are certain things that the husband actually does. And there are other things that he might just simply make sure are actually being done and getting. So I like one of the qualifications for an elder, 1 Timothy 3. Paul says that a man must manage his household well.

[01:38:59:17 - 01:39:08:15]
Chris
 I believe that the qualifications for serving as an elder in the church are what God desires for every man.

[01:39:09:22 - 01:39:22:18]
Chris
 It's not like this is just for elders. No, this is what God wants for everyone, but this is what is required for them. So managing the household well. Well, any manager of any--

[01:39:24:00 - 01:39:46:05]
Chris
 a good manager is not going to be doing it all. He's not going to be going around, you do this, you do this, you do this. I'm making all the decisions. A good manager is the one who's actually going to just-- things are going like they're supposed to be going and we're functioning in the way that we're supposed to be functioning. I'm caring for the people under my management,

[01:39:48:04 - 01:39:49:12]
Chris
 this is my responsibility.

[01:39:51:12 - 01:40:24:17]
Chris
 And that doesn't mean that there aren't times where the husband has to say, OK, this is where we're going, and this is where we're headed, or this is what we're going to do. But if that's our default in the way that we come at it and we start at it, then I think we're automatically starting from the end. So I would say that a husband saying, this is what we are going to do with his wife, this is what we're going to do, and maybe she disagrees with that.

[01:40:26:08 - 01:40:29:06]
Chris
 That's, in many cases, the last option

[01:40:31:00 - 01:40:37:23]
Chris
 rather than the first option. And it's like, OK, a decision has to be made. We have to make a decision.

[01:40:39:07 - 01:40:45:08]
Chris
 We've been working at this, we've been talking about it, I'm trying to listen to her. I'm like, we're--

[01:40:47:04 - 01:40:49:03]
Chris
 but at the end of the day,

[01:40:51:09 - 01:40:53:22]
Chris
 a decision has to be made.

[01:40:55:14 - 01:41:05:20]
Chris
 Then OK, I think that that headship term means authority.

[01:41:06:21 - 01:41:10:05]
Chris
 And so if we go to Ephesians chapter 5,

[01:41:11:21 - 01:41:33:12]
Chris
 so it says, wives submit to your husbands. What we have to understand about that, that is in a section where Paul begins to talk about the authority structure in, in those days, the household. So he goes on, and then children to parents, and then those days, servants, slaves to owners.

[01:41:35:10 - 01:41:50:08]
Chris
 Our application is employer and employees. So God has ordained in structure, right? Like he has. And we can see this from Genesis 1 and 2. And so government,

[01:41:51:22 - 01:42:03:12]
Chris
 we're to submit to the governing authorities. Paul talks about that in Romans 13. So submission is not something that is unique for wives. It's like we all are under authority.

[01:42:05:03 - 01:42:10:09]
Chris
 And ultimately, in the church, we're under the authority of Christ. Church submits to Christ. Church submits to Christ.

[01:42:12:00 - 01:42:13:23]
Chris
 But again,

[01:42:15:16 - 01:42:42:08]
Chris
 I think we get focused on this, we're submit, submit, submit. And yeah, it really is, is like the husband is the leader. He's responsible. And he does have authority. But how is he going to use that authority? And what's the purposes of that authority? And again, I go back to the cultivation thing.

[01:42:44:04 - 01:43:23:16]
Chris
 But I think a lot of times, if we would just say we're partners in this, what the wife thinks, feels, believes, and her opinion should hold equal weight. And what I mean by that equal weight doesn't mean we're voting. But I'm going to listen to her as much as there. And then if we just get to those situations where we're trying and we just don't land on the same place,

[01:43:25:07 - 01:43:28:11]
Chris
 I think that that's where the Bible calls the wife to.

[01:43:29:13 - 01:43:36:07]
Chris
 Her role is she's responsible for her response to her husband. The husband's responsible ultimately for the decision.

[01:43:37:09 - 01:44:24:05]
Brenton
 Yeah. Yeah, so you would say that the leadership role is pushing toward cultivation like what you talked about last week. I guess here's a question that's been rolling around in my head. And we can, I know we need to wrap up. But another thing that is in Ephesians 5 is that we as husbands are supposed to present our wives holding and blameless to the Lord as Christ does the church, right? And so I guess the question there is like, yeah, you talked about servant leadership. And I think that the servant part of that is super important. But that's an adjective to the leadership, right? So the actual positive teaching on what does it look like for a husband to lead his wife,

[01:44:25:19 - 01:44:28:22]
Brenton
 you would point to just the cult of what are we cultivating?

[01:44:28:22 - 01:44:37:15]
Chris
 I think you bring up a shep. There's a shepherding component. Like I'm responsible to care for her,

[01:44:39:04 - 01:44:58:06]
Chris
 which includes-- we could talk about other pluses if a man doesn't provide for his own family, he's worse than an unbeliever. So a husband is responsible to provide. Doesn't mean that a wife cannot contribute to that. And it doesn't mean that a wife can't make more than her husband. I don't believe that at all.

[01:45:00:01 - 01:45:18:15]
Chris
 But a husband, like we're providing, we're protecting, and those kind of things. And shepherding would be included in that. I do want to go back and say sometimes, I think we go wrong here when we think that the wives' role is to submit. That's not a role.

[01:45:20:12 - 01:45:22:05]
Chris
 That's an action.

[01:45:24:03 - 01:45:54:23]
Chris
 And I really believe this is where we have seriously gone wrong in this discussion, is that we look into Ephesians 5 and we think, OK, a husband's role is to lead, and a wife's role is to submit. No, no, no, no, no. The way that a wife relates to her husband is-- and Paul actually changes it from submit in verse 21 to at the end. He says a wife must respect her husband, which I think is helpful.

[01:45:56:22 - 01:45:57:16]
Chris
 We can talk about that too.

[01:46:00:01 - 01:46:06:09]
Chris
 But a wife's role, if we go back to Genesis 2, is to be a helper,

[01:46:07:12 - 01:46:53:08]
Chris
 which is to use her gifts, her abilities, her strength to fill in in what is lacking with him. So it's to bring her talents and her abilities, and her passions, and everything that she is in partnership with her husband to accomplish this creation mandate. And a wise husband, and I think a husband who's getting this issue will say, what are my wife's gifts? What are her abilities? Where are we at in life? How do I help? Like, how do I work with her in this so that we're leveraging all of our gifts together, rather than I'm in charge, I'm going to make the decision, and she needs to submit to me, and off we go.

[01:46:55:08 - 01:47:02:07]
Chris
 Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a key thing, because I think oftentimes it's the wife's role is to submit, and that's not the role.

[01:47:03:12 - 01:47:03:15]
Chris
 Yeah.

[01:47:05:10 - 01:47:12:01]
Chris
 Like, let me say-- so let's use an example here. Like, technically, I'm your boss.

[01:47:13:05 - 01:47:13:11]
Chris
 OK?

[01:47:15:06 - 01:47:17:12]
Chris
 We don't talk in those terms. Apparently we do.

[01:47:19:09 - 01:47:28:21]
Chris
 But it would be like telling me, like, my role here is the lead pastor, and, Brenton, your role at the church is to submit to me. Well, that wouldn't be very accurate, right?

[01:47:30:18 - 01:47:36:01]
Eva
 I would say, on the flip side of that, I always tell-- well, I often say,

[01:47:37:07 - 01:47:55:03]
Eva
 if you only knew the things I didn't say, Chris, you'd give me credit for how submissive I am. And he agrees with me all the time on that. Hopefully his microphone is cut off right now. But part of the problem in that is it was so ingrained in me that the husband's leader, the husband's leader, the husband--

[01:47:56:07 - 01:47:57:08]
Eva
 I was--

[01:47:58:09 - 01:48:26:00]
Eva
 so I taught that it was wrong for me to have an opinion, let alone voice an opinion, which is shocking to everyone listening, given my personality. I'm aware. But there have been many times when Chris is trying to get me to do this equal conversation. And I'm like, whatever you think, whatever you think. You're the one that's got your answer into the Lord.

[01:48:27:14 - 01:48:33:21]
Eva
 And for me and my background, again, I was like, I'm not supposed to give an opinion because that would be wrong.

[01:48:35:00 - 01:48:58:10]
Eva
 What if he made this decision? He's going to let-- I heard this many times growing up. I wouldn't want his decision to be made because of something I said. And yet Chris steps into that and he's like, that's exactly-- like I need-- because I'm never going to see it through your perspective. And so if I don't have your perspective, everything-- every decision I make is one-sided.

[01:49:00:18 - 01:49:29:01]
Eva
 And I'm trying to get to that point. But there have been times to the exact question that we are having a discussion. We're solidly on opposite viewpoints about door A or door B. And I remember a specific one. I won't tell you exactly the scenario. But Chris was very convinced we should choose door B, for instance. And I was not. And so I said,

[01:49:30:01 - 01:49:40:21]
Eva
 look, I gave my opinion. I think it's the wrong choice. But ultimately, you're the one that has to answer for it. And I don't know if that was the right-- I hopefully wasn't being ugly with it. But I was like,

[01:49:42:01 - 01:49:46:14]
Eva
 no amount of talking is going to get me to think that door B is the best choice.

[01:49:48:03 - 01:49:53:19]
Eva
 So I just have to like, OK, Lord, it's his responsibility.

[01:49:54:23 - 01:50:07:05]
Eva
 So the onus has to rest on him. And for the most part, I hope-- I can't remember a time when I balked at it or nagged at him after the fact.

[01:50:09:00 - 01:50:24:06]
Eva
 But there were some difficult moments in that. And there were some really good things that came from that. And then that just allowed us to have more conversation. But sometimes you might not get to an agreeing point. And I think that's where the rut is.

[01:50:26:23 - 01:50:39:01]
Brenton
 All right. Well, thanks, both of you. Thanks, Eva, for coming in. Yeah. Thanks, Ray. Yeah, if you have any questions, send them in. Askatfurtherpodcast.com. And yeah, we'll talk to you next week.

[01:50:40:04 - 01:50:45:02]
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