[00:00:00:00 - 00:00:10:00]
 (Music Playing)

[00:00:13:03 - 00:00:17:12]
Chris
 That's why we've got to know God's word. And my theology really, truly does matter.

[00:00:19:10 - 00:00:38:23]
Chris
 Why I love to preach God's word and why I try to do it so passionately, because it's not just facts or things that don't really matter to the day-to-day of our lives. They literally matter in everything we do, every environment we live, every relationship that we are in.

[00:00:38:23 - 00:00:43:04]
 (Music Playing)

[00:00:43:04 - 00:00:49:10]
Brenton
 Welcome back to Further. I am Brenton Grimm. Chris Carr, glad to see you healthy again, almost.

[00:00:49:10 - 00:00:56:05]
Chris
 Getting there. So my voice is still struggling a little bit, but slowly and surely.

[00:00:56:05 - 00:01:07:05]
Brenton
 Yeah, you pushed through last Sunday. But obviously, we didn't get an episode out last week, because you were under the weather still. So apologize for that. But we're back.

[00:01:08:20 - 00:01:12:12]
Chris
 I didn't think it would be good to wear a mask while we're trying to do that. I appreciate that.

[00:01:13:12 - 00:01:14:06]
 (Laughter)

[00:01:14:06 - 00:01:16:00]
Brenton
 Yeah, let's avoid that.

[00:01:17:09 - 00:01:20:04]
Brenton
 Yeah, so I guess we'll just jump in.

[00:01:21:05 - 00:01:34:23]
Brenton
 Went through-- continuing through John 18 this week. And a lot of this is the conversation between Jesus and Pilate. I think it's interesting for a lot of reasons, but there's a few different things I want to get into today.

[00:01:36:08 - 00:01:55:17]
Brenton
 Let's start here. So in verse 38, Pilate says to the Jewish crowd that he finds no guilt in Jesus, and yet, and he hands him over to be crucified anyway. You mentioned that there was kind of a rough relationship between Pilate and the Jewish population at the time.

[00:01:57:07 - 00:02:06:20]
Brenton
 Can you give us some background on Pilate? You talked about it a little bit, but what are some extra biblical things that we have written about him?

[00:02:08:04 - 00:02:23:08]
Chris
 Well, there's two historians, Josephus and I believe it's Philo, who both record historical accounts about Pilate and how he just, on a number of occasions,

[00:02:24:22 - 00:02:57:10]
Chris
 did things that really offended the Jewish religious sensibilities, things like taking money out of the treasury to build an aqueduct in Jerusalem, which is great. They needed an aqueduct, but that money is reserved for care of the temple and all of that. And so he could have come up with money in another way. And so obviously, they had a big issue with this.

[00:02:58:23 - 00:03:17:00]
Chris
 And so that led to a whole bunch of drama. And then there were a couple of other things where things like he's having Roman standards carried into Jerusalem, and he did it like a cover at night, so obviously he knew this was going to cause trouble.

[00:03:18:22 - 00:04:05:20]
Chris
 And it's not that they couldn't do it, and the Romans didn't have a tendency at other times and places, but in general, they tried to keep the peace and the places that they were ruling over. And he just didn't have, on many occasions, just have really any desire, seemingly, to try to keep the peace, but rather to do things that were going to stir things up. And then when he surprised somebody to stir them up, then he would respond with shows of force. And then there's this passage in Luke 13. And it's just a brief mention of how Pilate mixed the blood of Galileans with our sacrifices. So we don't have any other historical record. That's really all that's mentioned, but it would seem like literally while some Galileans were worshiping, he took their,

[00:04:06:21 - 00:04:33:04]
Chris
 killed them and mixed their blood with literally as they're making sacrifices. And so that's just kind of the guy that he was, and we see it both historically and scripturally. So when we, and we'll get to it this week in Luke 19, but Pilate seems to be on his last leg with his Roman overlords, as I mentioned. And so the Jews are gonna use that because he says, hey,

[00:04:34:07 - 00:04:57:18]
Chris
 like, nobody is a, who claims to be a king is a friend of Caesar. And so basically what they're saying is, is Pilate, if you let this guy go, that means that you're opposing Caesar. And he just can't afford for like that to be even, I think to be said. And so he just gives in to them because we're gonna, we're gonna see this more like Pilate

[00:04:58:23 - 00:05:00:15]
Chris
 repeatedly claims Jesus is innocent.

[00:05:02:08 - 00:05:05:03]
Chris
 Like he said, I find no guilt in this man. He says it more than once.

[00:05:06:05 - 00:05:09:13]
Chris
 We know that apparently his wife had also had a dream

[00:05:11:08 - 00:05:19:01]
Chris
 about Jesus and said, and so she comes to Pilate and says, have nothing to do with this man. And what she means by that is, is just like you need to let him go.

[00:05:20:06 - 00:05:26:19]
Chris
 And so he's afraid of what he sees in Jesus. Actually, this week we're gonna see Jesus,

[00:05:28:04 - 00:05:34:08]
Chris
 the Jewish leaders tell him he claims to be the son of God. So that makes Pilate even more afraid. So he's already, like it's so,

[00:05:35:09 - 00:05:51:11]
Chris
 the Jewish leaders are playing on that. They know he's fearful. And so they use that to pressure him into doing what they want him to do. Because he doesn't wanna lose his position, but he's also afraid, like he's just caught in the middle here and he gives in.

[00:05:52:22 - 00:06:00:00]
Chris
 And his Pilate is being held up to us as an example of human, like this is the human, this is a human heart.

[00:06:01:05 - 00:06:10:15]
Chris
 And we give into the fear of man rather than pleasing God and doing what we know is right. Like he knows what's right to do, but he doesn't do it because he's afraid.

[00:06:11:21 - 00:06:15:05]
Brenton
 So when we think about Jesus,

[00:06:16:10 - 00:06:26:08]
Brenton
 they're trying to get Barabbas instead, right? Why was that more expedient for Pilate at that point to let someone like Barabbas go?

[00:06:28:05 - 00:07:10:15]
Chris
 Well, I think it just pleased the people who are putting pressure on him. And so it's like, this isn't the easier way out of this for me because if I don't do what they want, then they're gonna riot. And if they're gonna riot, like my job is to keep the peace here. And one of the reasons, I mean, the reason actually Pilate was in Jerusalem for this weekend was to keep the peace because this is the biggest celebration of the year for the Jewish people, the Passover. It's like, this is it. I mean, we've gone all the way back to Egypt, right? And so it was also a time where kind of nationalism

[00:07:12:15 - 00:07:23:19]
Chris
 was at its fever pitch. And the Jewish people were on a regular basis. The regular basis, the Jewish authorities were having to put down Barabbas types, like these insurrections.

[00:07:24:20 - 00:07:30:18]
Chris
 And we can even see that in the book of Acts where these same Jewish leaders are talking about, hey,

[00:07:32:00 - 00:08:12:12]
Chris
 you remember that guy? And he rose up and took this many people away, and then they all, he died and they scattered. And then this other guy, remember him. So this is a regular basis. There were insurrections. And Passover was the time of the year where this is most likely to happen because you have like around 100,000 people pouring into Jerusalem. It's like a really big, big time. I've heard 100,000 to a million, so like sources vary on that. But there's a lot of people packed in here. And it's remembering their liberation from Egypt, which serves up like this. So Pilate normally is in Caesarea. That's where his main palace or headquarters was. He's down in Jerusalem for this weekend

[00:08:13:13 - 00:08:23:05]
Chris
 because I need to be there to make sure that things don't get out of control. Well, they're threatening him. Like he's feeling if I don't let Barabbas go,

[00:08:24:06 - 00:08:32:20]
Chris
 or if I don't crucify Jesus, they're gonna riot. And then that's gonna get back to Rome and I'm gonna be done. Right.

[00:08:34:00 - 00:08:40:01]
Chris
 Which eventually did happen to him a few years later is that he was recalled, so to speak.

[00:08:40:01 - 00:08:41:00]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:08:44:00 - 00:08:50:07]
Brenton
 You said that all political leaders rule through coercion, control, force, and violence.

[00:08:51:14 - 00:08:58:15]
Brenton
 I'm curious, was this a comment on like specific leaders or are you saying that this is just kind of a necessary

[00:09:00:05 - 00:09:02:17]
Brenton
 reality for any earthly ruler?

[00:09:02:17 - 00:09:13:16]
Chris
 I mean, I think probably saying all political leaders are probably a little strong, but I think it's just a general principle is that like this is the way of the world that the world,

[00:09:15:00 - 00:09:23:01]
Chris
 Jesus has a passage in Mark 10 where he talks about, his disciples are arguing he's gonna be the greatest, who is the greatest, who's gonna be the greatest. And he says, "Hey,

[00:09:24:07 - 00:09:36:00]
Chris
 this is the way that the world works," is like they lord it over, leaders they lord it over those under them. And he says, "It shall not be that way for you."

[00:09:37:07 - 00:10:11:07]
Chris
 But so the point is, is like in general, the way that the world operates is through coercion, control, force, and violence. And that's political leaders for sure by and large, but it's also leaders in a whole host of environments is there's always a grout, who's got authority, who's in power, who gets to say what's happening. And so I think it's very easy to look out and to give plenty of examples of, I mean, we can name names if we want to and probably make people upset,

[00:10:12:13 - 00:10:18:18]
Chris
 but the reality, Jesus' point is like, this is the way of the world in general.

[00:10:20:16 - 00:10:23:10]
Chris
 Well, I mean, it's also what's prized,

[00:10:24:16 - 00:10:26:02]
Chris
 like that's what's,

[00:10:27:19 - 00:10:29:06]
Chris
 we want,

[00:10:30:17 - 00:10:44:18]
Chris
 at least when it's on our side, we want somebody who is strong and who has power and who throws their weight around and who we can get behind in our champion kind of thing.

[00:10:45:22 - 00:11:08:14]
Chris
 And that's just the way that the world operates is by exalting yourself and making much of yourself, promoting yourself. How do you get ahead? You'll never get ahead if you don't promote yourself, you don't stand up for yourself, you don't grab for, take what you can get, like you got to, like that's just kind of the world kind of mentality.

[00:11:09:15 - 00:11:23:21]
Chris
 And Jesus is saying, well, the way that I operate is by not by exalting myself, but by humbling myself. I don't, I win by dying.

[00:11:26:13 - 00:11:57:22]
Chris
 And it's just a complete opposite. And what the world saw as shame and just total, like a total loss is actually what accomplished the greatest good. And the greatest power is actually seen and not actually exerting it. When Jesus, the greatest power is when he, he kept himself from showing the power that he can. And we see that in the garden where he says, I could call, you know, he says, Peter, I could call down, you know,

[00:11:58:23 - 00:12:01:01]
Chris
 a legion of angels. Like,

[00:12:02:19 - 00:12:09:10]
Chris
 all I gotta do is say the word and yet he didn't. And that's how salvation comes to the world.

[00:12:09:10 - 00:12:18:21]
Brenton
 Yeah, for sure. That's helpful. Okay. You also said that the church doesn't ultimately change the world through political power, but through gospel proclamation.

[00:12:20:17 - 00:12:36:07]
Brenton
 How should Christians think about the relationship between these two things? You know, we've talked about this before, maybe at length when we were going through Romans 13, but in your opinion, like what role should believers play in this world to,

[00:12:37:11 - 00:12:49:00]
Brenton
 you know, the goal is like to redeem culture, right? If we're getting involved in politics, that should be our goal, I think, but like what role should we be playing in that?

[00:12:49:00 - 00:13:21:10]
Chris
 Yeah, I mean, I think very carefully when you said, how should we think about the relationship between these two things? I don't think that this means that Christians say we have no place in politics or politics don't matter. They do. And those, we saw in Romans 13, the governing authorities have been ordained by God. And we're also told in 1 Timothy 2 that we're to pray for those in political authority.

[00:13:22:19 - 00:13:28:18]
Chris
 And the point there in 1 Timothy 2 is we're to pray for them so that we can live quiet lives and the gospel can go forward.

[00:13:29:22 - 00:13:42:18]
Chris
 Okay, so I think there's a place for Christian to say, we want to pursue politics, we wanna be involved in that. And so we want to do so in such a way that

[00:13:45:01 - 00:14:00:08]
Chris
 there could be peace. And what I mean by this is not like the peace that the gospel brings, yes, both, both kinds of pieces, maybe I would say, like there's peace that the society runs well

[00:14:01:16 - 00:14:15:09]
Chris
 in a just, the most just way possible, but then also so that the gospel can go forward because that's where ultimately lives are gonna be changed and where people are gonna experience true peace. So I think it's,

[00:14:17:08 - 00:14:51:23]
Chris
 I think we're not looking to politics and positions, policies as like, like that's not our ultimate hope, but that doesn't mean that there's not a place for us to play in that, to give an opportunity for us to represent and to show what the kingdom of God is actually like. And so the kingdom of God is a kingdom of justice. And we in our politics can either be less just or more just.

[00:14:53:04 - 00:15:05:01]
Chris
 And that can be true whether we're, people are believers or not. So we as believers though should understand more fully what true justice is and then how does our Christian faith

[00:15:06:02 - 00:15:23:22]
Chris
 impact how we seek to carry out justice. And the role of God's Institute of Government and he has a role for government, a purpose for government. I think we see that in scripture, both in Old Testament and New Testament. Okay, so like let's carry it out according to God's design, which will,

[00:15:24:22 - 00:15:31:22]
Chris
 if we do so, will enable the gospel to go forward in a greater way.

[00:15:33:01 - 00:15:36:08]
Chris
 Do you? I mean, there's a lot there, but yeah.

[00:15:36:08 - 00:15:40:23]
Brenton
 I guess maybe I'll just wrap this one up with like, do you see,

[00:15:42:09 - 00:15:49:14]
Brenton
 what's the divide between where we're at right now and what you're talking about just thinking about the church maybe nationally?

[00:15:51:00 - 00:17:07:03]
Chris
 Well, I think that what the churches is viewing that like our hope for change, true change and is in politics and even hope is in the world and people who are very clearly not living or leading ruling in ways that are in line with the scripture and yet we think because they align with us in some ways politically that we've mixed those two things. So we're ultimately putting our hope for we actually put America first instead of the kingdom of God first at times, or at least our version of what we believe America first is ahead of what the kingdom of God would be. They're not one and the same that we think we have a real tendency to think that the kingdom of America, so to speak, and the kingdom of God are or should be identical.

[00:17:08:05 - 00:17:09:15]
Brenton
 Sure, yeah.

[00:17:10:21 - 00:17:25:03]
Brenton
 So I guess, but like when you say that change won't come through political power, like you would still say that it's a tool that like we should be trying to, I don't know, maybe I should say infiltrate, but kind of infiltrate.

[00:17:25:03 - 00:17:28:03]
Chris
 Yeah, I mean, so, but I'll put it this way.

[00:17:29:09 - 00:17:43:17]
Chris
 The problem in our world today is heart, the people's hearts and politics will never change people's hearts. It can restrain, like one of the jobs of government is to restrain evil hearts.

[00:17:44:23 - 00:17:45:03]
Chris
 Okay,

[00:17:46:10 - 00:17:53:14]
Chris
 and so one of the questions is government helping, is it accurately,

[00:17:55:00 - 00:17:56:16]
Chris
 sufficiently straying their strain

[00:17:57:17 - 00:18:01:18]
Chris
 evil hearts or is it even part of promoting that?

[00:18:03:19 - 00:18:48:15]
Chris
 But while the government's role is just a restraint, it can actually change hearts. Only the spirit of God working through the word of God, the gospel can actually change hearts. And so yes, we look to politics and we involve ourselves in politics in a way to say, how do we create it in an environment here where the government functions as a guy would have it to to restrain evil and to promote good? So that's the other side. But to recognize that ultimately at the end of the day, government is insufficient to change human hearts. And so we don't put our ultimate hope in politics, but in the gospel.

[00:18:48:15 - 00:18:51:12]
Brenton
 Yeah, okay, good.

[00:18:52:20 - 00:19:06:01]
Brenton
 You did briefly mention the irony of the Jewish crowd being unwilling to enter the governor's headquarters because it would defile them during Passover, all while pushing for the crucifixion of Jesus.

[00:19:07:04 - 00:19:14:10]
Brenton
 What does this reveal about the difference between like external obedience and a heart that is actually aligned with God?

[00:19:14:10 - 00:19:19:17]
Chris
 Yeah, I mean, this is a great question. I actually was thinking about this and,

[00:19:22:12 - 00:19:59:16]
Chris
 thought to include in the sermon, and I was just like, okay, it's too much for now. So it's good that you bring it up. I really think it's back to what Jesus talked about with the Pharisees, where they were basically whitewashed tombs, where they were looking good on the outside, but they were dead on the inside. And I think it shows us the danger of being overly religious. And what I mean by that, religion is not a bad thing. We practice religion. For sure, yeah. But when it's about religious, about practices, and the things, external obedience to things, and that's just a perfect example. It's like, we want to be able to partake in this,

[00:20:02:17 - 00:20:26:06]
Chris
 celebration, this commemoration, and all that kind of stuff. And that's what makes us holy is doing that, rather than what's the state of our hearts. And we look and look at that, and I'm sitting, shake our heads at that, and how prone are we to focus on external means of being right?

[00:20:27:09 - 00:20:31:06]
Chris
 And so many of us have grown up and come from

[00:20:32:20 - 00:20:52:00]
Chris
 more legalistic backgrounds, where that's just like, and I personally have a deep, I don't know what I mean, say zeal or passion about this, because I've just seen what religion and legalism does to people, and just what things are justified.

[00:20:54:05 - 00:21:00:06]
Chris
 Because I'm going to church, I'm giving, I'm serving, I go to the right church,

[00:21:01:10 - 00:21:13:01]
Chris
 I have the right Bible translation, I dress the right way, I don't do this and all that. It's all these outward stuff. And that's what, but like, okay, but how are you treating

[00:21:14:19 - 00:21:16:18]
Chris
 your wife or women?

[00:21:19:00 - 00:21:29:17]
Chris
 What's your relationship with a whole host of other things? What secret addictions do you have? And I just see it, and I think we're all prone to it.

[00:21:29:17 - 00:21:43:03]
Brenton
 Yeah, it kind of reminds me a little bit, when I remember when I was in college, this huge thing came up about Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship, right? And it was this pushback on legalism, I think, or,

[00:21:44:19 - 00:21:58:23]
Brenton
 but it's both, right? Sure. We can't get rid of the religion part of our religion, right, there are still things that we are obligated to do, but those things should come from a changed heart, right?

[00:21:58:23 - 00:22:09:03]
Chris
 Well, yeah, I mean, and I wouldn't even go, so use the term obligated, I would say like, this is just part of, there are things that are part of a relationship with God,

[00:22:10:03 - 00:22:16:18]
Chris
 like really get prayer and reading your Bible and being a part of a church, like that's all religion.

[00:22:19:10 - 00:22:33:22]
Chris
 That's part of a, that's how, because here's the other side of it, because you're absolutely right, but what is coincided with that is, we don't really need the church, we can be Christians without the church, and I would fundamentally say no.

[00:22:36:00 - 00:22:42:04]
Chris
 And so can you be a Christian without religion? And the answer to that is just no. But it's not a,

[00:22:43:06 - 00:22:47:03]
Chris
 on the other hand, it's not just about what we do, it's a both and.

[00:22:48:10 - 00:22:48:17]
Brenton
 For sure.

[00:22:52:05 - 00:22:56:11]
Brenton
 In verse 38, Pilate responds to Jesus by saying, what is truth?

[00:22:57:19 - 00:23:30:07]
Brenton
 You mentioned that this response is especially relatable given the period we live in now, where truth is seen as relative in large part. It seems to me that the reason he responded this way was more of a who cares about truth rather than a comment on relativism. Like he had his own motives, and truth was just kind of getting in his way. When you think about the relativism that's in our culture today, like what do you think the motivation is behind it? Do you see it as more of like a pragmatic thing like we see here?

[00:23:31:18 - 00:23:57:21]
Chris
 Yeah, it could be, what's really interesting is, so I didn't use this term, but I know I can use it with you and be interesting to see where you go with this, but like postmodernism. Okay, well that's what we're talking about, postmodernism, what is truth. We actually are post postmodernism now. Like there's been a reaction to postmodernism. And so it's not actually as much,

[00:23:59:22 - 00:24:02:23]
Chris
 relativism isn't as much of an issue, it still is.

[00:24:04:02 - 00:24:17:11]
Chris
 But there's people are more firm in what they believe in, and we can even talk about, we can see that in the political arena too. But I do think, I think you're right in that term, is like people,

[00:24:18:15 - 00:24:25:10]
Chris
 it's less relativism and more in terms of like don't get in the way of what my truth is for me.

[00:24:25:10 - 00:24:27:10]
Brenton
 Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:27:10 - 00:24:31:21]
Chris
 Like I have truth, like there is truth,

[00:24:32:22 - 00:24:38:18]
Chris
 but like you still don't have any right to tell me that my truth is wrong.

[00:24:40:10 - 00:24:50:00]
Chris
 So I don't know exactly what Pilate was saying with that. Like you read the commentators, they're also like unsure, like what does he mean?

[00:24:50:00 - 00:25:17:09]
Brenton
 To some extent, I think it's easy to kind of get rid of the personhood of people in this story, because we think about it in terms of like the prophecy, it had to be fulfilled. And so Pilate's just doing what was gonna happen anyway, but like he had real motives in this, right? And like all of these people, Judas and Herod, and all these people had their own motives for why they were doing this. Yeah, it's important to remember.

[00:25:17:09 - 00:25:18:03]
Chris
 Yeah, I mean, I think,

[00:25:21:04 - 00:25:23:08]
Chris
 my guess is it's kind of like,

[00:25:25:16 - 00:25:29:08]
Chris
 what Jack Nicholson said to Tom Cruise, you can't handle the truth.

[00:25:31:14 - 00:25:42:10]
Chris
 But no, in all seriousness, I think that he was basically just trying to avoid what it was. So it was like, okay, something's different about this guy.

[00:25:43:12 - 00:25:53:02]
Chris
 And we're not told this again, I mentioned that his wife had had a dream about Jesus. Like he knows something's different, something's going on.

[00:25:54:02 - 00:26:11:20]
Chris
 But what is that gonna mean for him? And that's, I think, how people a lot have responded to the truth is if we deal with it, it's gonna mean something significant for us. And we just would rather not deal with it at all.

[00:26:13:16 - 00:26:13:21]
Chris
 Yeah.

[00:26:15:02 - 00:26:15:07]
Chris
 Yeah.

[00:26:15:07 - 00:26:18:10]
Brenton
 Yeah, I think I've seen this kind of,

[00:26:19:16 - 00:26:23:00]
Brenton
 when the moral relativism comes up today,

[00:26:24:03 - 00:26:26:09]
Brenton
 it's a response to,

[00:26:27:12 - 00:26:45:18]
Brenton
 I don't want to admit that that's true, because then I'd have to change, right? And I think a lot of times, once somebody realizes that they're trapped in this kind of logic problem of relativism, I think it becomes pretty apparent, like why it's getting fought.

[00:26:45:18 - 00:27:05:01]
Chris
 Almost always, yeah. It's a great point. But just so that we all understand this is that this is not just as something in our culture today. This is very much a challenge for all of us is to, are we willing to face the truth about ourselves?

[00:27:07:01 - 00:27:22:12]
Chris
 And a lot of times we would just rather not face it. And we see this, I think, in the church a lot, is that we're happy about the truth about God's grace and God's love.

[00:27:23:21 - 00:27:26:22]
Chris
 But this idea of, last week I mentioned repentance.

[00:27:29:05 - 00:27:38:15]
Chris
 We all need, are we really comfortable? How well do we respond to that? Because repentance means you have to change. You need to change.

[00:27:39:17 - 00:27:41:14]
Chris
 It's fine, God loves me.

[00:27:43:00 - 00:27:44:13]
Chris
 And grace is, everybody's,

[00:27:46:00 - 00:27:48:08]
Chris
 nobody's gonna give any pushback about that.

[00:27:49:09 - 00:28:02:05]
Chris
 But oh, the way that you're living, or the way that your view of God is off here, and that's a whole nother thing.

[00:28:03:06 - 00:28:10:09]
Brenton
 Well, kinda related to that, near the end of your sermon you said that Jesus' kingdom advances through bearing witness to the truth.

[00:28:11:09 - 00:28:22:03]
Brenton
 So I guess just practically for the believer, what does faithful witness actually look like in normal life? How can we fight back against this kind of relativity?

[00:28:22:03 - 00:28:35:04]
Chris
 Yeah, I mean, I think it does actually start with our own personal lives, is like, am I gonna be willing to face the truth about myself?

[00:28:36:18 - 00:28:55:23]
Chris
 And then I'm, yeah, I'm someone who's saved by grace, but I'm also, I'm center insane at the same time. And I'm gonna be willing to confront the sinner in the mirror, and the person who needs Christ in the mirror. Like we never get to the place where we don't need Christ.

[00:28:57:05 - 00:29:14:00]
Chris
 We just don't. And that's true for every believer. And then it's, cause I think one of the problems that we get into, or at least the accusation that we get is that we, we're not the hypocrisy,

[00:29:15:02 - 00:29:24:20]
Chris
 and Christians are hypocrites. And first of all, that's a weapon that's wielded unfairly. A lot of times it's a common.

[00:29:26:04 - 00:29:40:22]
Chris
 But yes, it's also true. Like to some degree we are all, because we're still sinful people and weak people, but we ought to do all that we can to, and this is where repentance and confession comes into play,

[00:29:42:18 - 00:29:44:18]
Chris
 is like regularly like, yeah,

[00:29:45:22 - 00:29:48:11]
Chris
 I am falling short.

[00:29:50:00 - 00:29:51:22]
Chris
 But then I think it just like we,

[00:29:53:18 - 00:30:35:21]
Chris
 viewing like our role here in this world is like, we have a vocation, like with different vocations, different things that we're called to do, but our vocation is a means that God has given us to bear witness to the truth about his son. And it's not ultimately about being a doctor, an attorney or construction worker, a teacher, a nurse, whatever our role is, but it's about like, how am I bearing witness to Jesus, and how is that the center? And I think that begins with,

[00:30:36:23 - 00:30:44:10]
Chris
 and people are like, well, I don't know how to do that, and all that, but in the large part, it's just like, what has he done in your life? What's your story?

[00:30:46:12 - 00:30:53:19]
Chris
 Right? And just like, you know, you've heard me bear to say, it's just like one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

[00:30:55:07 - 00:31:19:19]
Chris
 And so I just, I think knowing, this is why we talk about the gospel all the time, and knowing what the gospel is, but then it's just being faithful day in and day out, witness about Christ. And that'll look different for different people, depending upon their circumstances and calling,

[00:31:21:11 - 00:32:02:03]
Chris
 but it's something that we all can. And really, if we're not doing that, then we gotta, you know, gotta ask the question. And I'd love what we see in Acts, the apostles are taken before the Jewish leaders, you know, here they are now, because they've been bearing witness to the truth, and they're like, okay, we can't, they're like, all right, what's going on here? And he says, and they just made note, they saw that they were unlearned, uneducated men, yet they knew that they had been with Jesus. And so, like I was just so powerful, it was like, okay, these guys didn't go to seminary,

[00:32:04:08 - 00:32:22:13]
Chris
 didn't go to even college at all, they're just your average fisherman guys, but something's different about them, because they've been with Jesus. And it doesn't mean just our lives, you know, we don't, you know, sometimes we get this idea, it's like, we're gonna spread the gospel just, you know, without words, well,

[00:32:23:14 - 00:32:30:05]
Chris
 you've never heard that before, right? Preach the gospel, use words if necessary. It is necessary.

[00:32:33:15 - 00:32:34:15]
Brenton
 Yep, not a telepathy.

[00:32:36:12 - 00:32:44:17]
Chris
 But our lives are a great testimony to whether or not, like our words are actually true.

[00:32:46:10 - 00:32:51:00]
Brenton
 All right, we'll end with this. The central question that you drew out of the passage

[00:32:52:11 - 00:32:56:11]
Brenton
 was not simply like, is Jesus the king, but is Jesus my king?

[00:32:57:21 - 00:33:02:20]
Brenton
 What are some ways Christians might say Jesus is their king,

[00:33:03:21 - 00:33:10:01]
Brenton
 but struggle to live under his reign, or maybe they're realizing now that they're not living under his reign.

[00:33:10:01 - 00:33:10:08]
Chris
 Yeah,

[00:33:11:16 - 00:33:13:02]
Chris
 I mean, it's just,

[00:33:14:06 - 00:33:31:18]
Chris
 the base of it is, is am I the one that's making the decisions on where I'm going, what I'm doing, what I'm looking at, what I'm reading, what I'm taking in, how I'm using my money,

[00:33:32:21 - 00:33:37:06]
Chris
 how I'm using the resources, like how I view my time,

[00:33:39:01 - 00:34:34:17]
Chris
 or am I really seeking to know what his desire is for those things in my life, and when I find that, am I actually going to follow it? This is where the word is so important, and we talk about this all the time, but you can't know what his will is unless you are actually reading it and looking for it in scripture, and then you are taking that and actually applying it to your life. And it's like all of, we talk around here about all of life is worship. Like worship is not just what we do on Sunday morning for 75 minutes, it's like all of life is. And so, like is that 1 Corinthians 10 passage, whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, we're to do it all for God's glory, which is worship, which is what the publishers mean in submission to him and for his kingdom purposes. And so there's no area is like, you know,

[00:34:36:09 - 00:34:43:23]
Chris
 I would just use money, I know that gets people uncomfortable, but like, are we willing to say this is his and how do you want me to use it?

[00:34:45:19 - 00:34:57:09]
Chris
 And my time, like, and okay, am I thinking about the things that I'm consuming? And is that something that would be pleasing to him or is something like, no,

[00:34:58:17 - 00:35:11:06]
Chris
 that's a sin Jesus died for, why am I watching this or in that? And I'm not trying to get on anybody, but I'm just like, it's like, are we even willing to ask the question?

[00:35:13:02 - 00:35:24:10]
Chris
 Like that's the way we talk about the truth. We're not willing to deal with the truth. We're not even willing to go there because we, okay, then I might have to stop doing something that I really like to do.

[00:35:26:16 - 00:35:28:18]
Chris
 Yeah, so, I mean, we,

[00:35:31:03 - 00:35:34:18]
Chris
 you know, Billy Graham has a headline, you know,

[00:35:36:04 - 00:35:41:06]
Chris
 the greatest cause of atheism in the world is Christians who claim Jesus with their lips, but deny him with a lifestyle.

[00:35:42:17 - 00:35:45:12]
Chris
 That's what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.

[00:35:46:19 - 00:35:47:19]
Chris
 So it's,

[00:35:48:23 - 00:35:49:09]
Chris
 you know,

[00:35:51:06 - 00:35:55:11]
Chris
 that's a convicting statement. It's really gonna help.

[00:35:56:21 - 00:35:58:22]
Chris
 But are we,

[00:36:00:12 - 00:36:03:17]
Chris
 you know, it's easy to say Jesus is king,

[00:36:04:18 - 00:36:10:02]
Chris
 right? You know, didn't Kanye have a whole album about that? I was waiting for it. Years ago.

[00:36:11:13 - 00:36:12:21]
Chris
 But, you know,

[00:36:13:23 - 00:36:24:03]
Chris
 I mean, it's a perfect example. Christians get all excited, all like, yeah, right? And it was like, this is coming clearly from a guy who's not living like Jesus is king.

[00:36:25:05 - 00:36:31:22]
Chris
 And it's, that is though the question. It is the question of life.

[00:36:32:23 - 00:36:40:06]
Chris
 It is not only is he the king. Okay, you gotta answer that. And then if it is, are you living with it?

[00:36:42:07 - 00:36:42:12]
Brenton
 It's good.

[00:36:43:14 - 00:36:45:08]
Brenton
 All right, well, let's wrap up there.

[00:36:46:17 - 00:36:50:03]
Brenton
 Appreciate it, Chris. We'll be back next week with John 19.

[00:36:51:07 - 00:36:54:08]
Chris
 Yep, John 19 or marching to Calvary.

[00:36:54:08 - 00:37:00:06]
Brenton
 If you have any questions, feel free to let us know. Ask at furtherpodcast.com. We'll talk to you next week.

[00:37:01:13 - 00:37:05:11]
 (Upbeat Music)