Welcome back to further. If you're a regular listener with us, you notice that this is not Brenton Grim. Brenton is our usual host and he's on vacation this week. So he asked me to fill in today. So my name is Paul Fischbach. I'm the pastor of discipleship here at Harmony Bible Church. And so while you do have a different host today, you'll be happy to hear that our regular, most qualified guest is with us, Pastor Chris. Yeah, I'm not so sure about the most qualified, but here we are. It's good to have you with us, Paul. Thanks. I'm glad to be able to be here and host in Breton's place. But yeah, you've been you've been on the podcast before as a guest, as a guest, as a guest. Yeah. No. Yeah. Your first time as host. Yeah, yeah. So a little different. How's your soul today, Chris? It's a little tired. Yeah. Um, a lot going on. So it was a busy week last week. So, um, we, uh, as, uh, you know, everybody or hopefully everybody who's listening knows we celebrated the one year anniversary of All In. And that was a company with earlier in the week, we had a gathering with all of our leadership at the Fort Madison campus, where we celebrated and dedicated. It was a great night. And then, follow that up. On Friday night, we actually had a gathering for people who've come to harmony over the last year. And so that was Friday evening. So some big thing Monday night, big thing Friday night. Both of them were fantastic. But, uh, you know, it makes for makes for a long week. So yeah, we invited people to join the journey with us. We did, we did. And we had, we had a great time. It was. I honestly wish, uh, everyone who's been a part of the journey so far could have at least been there to witness, um, and to hear stories of what God's done in people's lives and the people that he's brought to our church. Some, some people coming, um, into the church officially, like becoming a part of the big C church for the first time and then joining our little C church. Um, and then other people, God's brought it either into the area or just really maybe brought them to church for the first time, um, in a while. Um, just all kinds of stories. And it was great. Well, I was going to kind of ask you about that because, you know, you brought up on Sunday, we're halfway through our all in journey. Mhm. Uh, our two year journey. And there's a lot of exciting things going on. You highlighted a bunch of those on Sunday. So is there anything that's like in particular, some something that's your favorite? You might have multiple favorite things, but it's like something that stands out like this. This is so great about what's what we're seeing God doing. You asked me that. And I immediately think about how people make fun of me sometimes for saying, this is the most important passage in the Bible. Um, but, um, yeah, there's so many different things. Um, one of my favorite things recently actually was on, on Friday night and just being able to hear these true, true stories, one of the things we did is we had, um, people share, we've been calling these things transformational moments. Um, and we just had people, uh, if they were willing to share. And it was, you know, there was a number of moments where people got choked up about hearing what God's doing and in particular, what God's doing through harmony. Um, and, uh, I, yeah, it's great. Um, pastor Mike was there and was like, hey, we should do this every year for, for new people. And, um, I don't think actually it's a, it's a bad idea because it was super encouraging for us as leaders. There were several pastors there. And, um, so we've heard just so many of those, we're going to tell some of those stories over the next couple of weeks. We've got some videos that we're going to share. I think it's going to be super encouraging to, to our people. But the other part of that evening that was, um, just special is that it was just people from all different walks of life. Um, and we had a lot of single people there, uh, young, younger single people. Um, and then we had, uh, people on the other end of the spectrum in their seventies. Um, and then you got people in, in, you know, all, all in the age brackets kind of between that. Yep. And on top of that, um, you have, you know, people who've come to harmony through our counseling ministry who, um, from celebrate recovery and, and so it's not just on Sunday morning and, and through the messages or anything like it does that does happen through that for sure. But, you know, our ministry here is much more than a Sunday, Sunday morning ministry by intent. And, um, there's, we, we believe that, um, the other ministries that we have are, are significant and we pour a lot of time and resources into them. And it's great to see that they're bearing fruit as well. Yeah. Well, I've really loved from the very beginning of this journey that we've focused on the spiritual growth of all of us. And when we were at the event with all the leaders early in the week, uh, you know, you had invited us around the tables, around our tables to, to share stories. And, uh, it was just great to hear stories from other leaders in our church of personal transformation happening in our lives that God is working on and changing the lives of our leaders. And we're not only seeing that in the leadership, but we're seeing it in all throughout the congregation. And that's just awesome to see God's work there. Yeah, one of my real hopes, and I think that this is happening, um, is that we will let go of any cynicism that we have about this in terms of like, this is okay, it's about raising a bunch of money to, you know, build buildings and fund other projects and things like that. And like, that's even what it's, um, solely or even primarily about, because it really hasn't ever been about that. That's, that's part of it. And, um, you know, because people experience transformation most of the time in places, right. Um, and in, in facilities and those things. But, um, it truly always has been that this is where, where the people in our church and then people through our church would actually experience true spiritual life changing, um, transformation. And that's, that's what's happening. Right? Well, and we, we didn't plan on talking about this, but in Fort Madison, you on the video, you were in the foyer in the video. And so we have a brand new facility there, multi-million dollar facility there. That's amazing. But I think what was so exciting about the opening of that new building was what happened on Easter. Couldn't happen in the old building. We had over five hundred people that showed up in Fort Madison in and Easter. That literally could not happen before, and now we have the capacity to do so. And so that that's what gets exciting when you see that that means that many more people hear the gospel, that many more people can experience the life change that Jesus Christ brings. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, uh, our anchor passage for this journey has been Mark chapter twelve twenty nine to thirty one. And, uh, we're in this all in mini series that we keep kind of coming back to. Uh, so we've been diving deeper into what it looks like to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind, strength, and now soul. Mhm. Um, so you talked a little bit about this on Sunday, but just for a quick review, what what is the soul? What are we talking about with that? Yeah. I mean, this is actually a pretty complicated topic. Um, because of the, you know, the Bible uses the term soul over and over and over again, both in the Old Testament and New Testament. It doesn't always use it in the same way and actually say often it doesn't use it in exactly the same way, which makes it even more confusing. Right, right. And, and so in, in, in one sense, the soul is like our, just our, our life. Um, I, I refer to Mark eight thirty five and thirty six, which we're going to get to in the last message here where Jesus, you know, basically says, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and to forfeit his soul? Well, um, the same word is translated life earlier. Um, and you're like, why did the interpreters do that? Why do they don't use the, the same English word? And that's because it has a slightly different meaning depending upon the context of what Jesus is trying to get across, that your life is your, your soul. He's actually trying to, to show us that this is about who you, who you are you. What is it? You know, what does it benefit you to gain all of these other things? But to literally lose your life, your, your life, which is, is, is everything to you is who you, who you are there. Um, but then in another way, um, as we talked about on Sunday, it refers to your entire personhood and I talked about it's what makes you, you, um, someone after the service on Sunday said, um, I've always thought of the soul as the person in front of me. And I was like, okay, well, that's a, that's actually a pretty good way to, to think about it. It's like, it's a, it's a, your soul is your person is a person. You, you are a soul. And so it is true that we have a soul. And we actually probably get to this in just a minute. But, but it's actually more accurate to say you, you are a soul than you have a soul. Mhm. Um, and, and so it just like all the different things that make you, you, your personality, your abilities, Um, it includes your heart and your, your, your mind. Like I believe soul is the all encompassing term here in this great commandment. It's like if you want, if you wanted one word to take out of those four soul would be the one because the other three are found in um, our soul within that. Yeah, yeah. That's good. Well, you mentioned, uh, how the scriptures use the term life and soul interchangeably a little bit. And you gave an example of that. Um, the Bible I had also come to mind, the Bible also talks about both soul and spirit. So Hebrews chapter four, verse twelve talks about the Word of God, pierces to the division of soul and of spirit. And so I just wanted to ask the question, is the soul different from or is it the same as the spirit? What are those interchangeable? What's going on there? Yeah, it depends on who you ask. So, um, we'll do a little bit of a, of a deep dive here on personhood, the nature of man. So there's the history of the church. There's basically and still currently is, uh, three different positions on this. There's, there's monism, uh, dichotomy and trichotomy, uh, monism basically says that, you know, there's, there's no distinction between body, soul and spirit. Like there's only one like, like it's yeah, mono mono. Um, and, and so, um, this is actually making kind of a comeback, uh, today. Um, and so it's just like your, your soul and body, there's no really no distinction between them. Then there's dichotomy, which you can understand dies too. So there's, there's the body and the soul and then Trichotomy, which is the, as you're asking the question, um, there is that there's the body of the soul and the spirit. And in that um view trichotomy. Obviously you have your physical body, but then you have your soul, which is your will and your emotions. Uh, and the spirit is the part of you that relates to, to God is the, as we think about the spiritual aspect of us, but there's a distinction, but there's a division there between the soul and, and the spirit. Okay. Um, so the most common one is dichotomy. Okay. Um, and would, would be the position that, that I would hold and that that's the right one. Uh, I think it's the most biblically accurate one. And I think, quite honestly, I don't think that this is, this is a gospel end of the day issue where we're going to, we're going to divide on this. But, um, I, I think it's pretty clear, um, that monism is not the correct way to go because the Bible is pretty clear over and over again that there is at least a body and a spirit, and it's actually pretty important, um, in terms of what happens to us when we, we, we die, um, what happens, you know, um, the Bible teaches, uh, I believe, and this is our position here at Harmony that, uh, there's something known as the intermediate state, which our body goes into the ground and our spirit or soul goes to the presence of the Lord. Paul says in second Corinthians five, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Um, and so if there's, you know, there's, there's no body and soul distinction, then then your body is just in the ground and where, you know, where are you, right. Yeah. Um, and um, gives us actually quite a bit of hope, um, while we wait for, for Christ's return. Um, but uh, why trichotomy would, would not be the, the, way to go is. I think the Bible often doesn't include the spirit. It only occasionally does. And in the cases that it does, it seems to just be a way of referring to the same thing. And sometimes the Bible does that. It uses another term just for kind of for emphasis. Um, so, um, you know, that um, Hebrews four passage, it's just, you know, dividing to soul and spirit is really just to say it's really, it's really getting to the heart of it. So to, to confuse things more through the heart into that. Um, but yeah, so those are the three, uh, basic positions, but I think it's important for us to understand that the, like, I would, uh, be, uh, would, would be a functional or structural, um, dichotomous. Okay. And that just means that the, the soul is a, a, an actual Substance has. Its a form like its not just an idea. Yeah, there is a real. There is a real soul that those who have passed away in Christ, they. They are are real substances now in the presence of. Of the Lord. And that one day their bodies and their soul will be reunited forever. Even as we were explaining that, I was wondering what monism would say about what. You know, we're supposed to get a new body. And so if we're one, what. And we're not going to have this body that we currently have, what happens is our soul that's transferred to the new body. How do you kind of look at that? I honestly, um, I haven't studied it enough to, even to, to, to accurately argue like that, that position. Um, if I can say this, all of the three three positions have actually strengths and weaknesses and the strength, if I can, you know, speak of the strength of monism is that it actually emphasizes the unity. There is a unity between body and spirit. Um. Like we don't separate. And to go back to dualism for a second. Uh, one of the reasons people react negatively to this idea of dualism and or dichotomy as it seems very like Greek in terms of like the body is, uh, bad and the spirit is, is good and we need to separate, you know, separate and all that kind of stuff. And the Bible nowhere teaches that the, that, that is true. Um, but, um, the, the emphasis or the strength of monism is like, there is a real unity here and for most of our history. That will be the case. Yes. Like there's only a short period of time where the body and the soul spirit will be separated. We will be reunited. And so, um. Yeah. Well, thanks for taking us a deep dive in that. That was interesting. Uh, I was wondering how you respond to that Hebrews passage. Uh, you talk about, uh, what your soul you mentioned on Sunday, your soul is what makes you, you. Um, and then you said, if you're going to love God, then your soul needs to be brought back to life. Because apart from God, our souls are dead. Now, I was imagining a skeptic in the audience listening to that and wondering, I'm clearly alive. I'm a soul. If that's what makes me me and I'm. I'm alive. How can you say my soul is dead? How would you respond to that? Yeah. I mean, are you one of those skeptics? Are these easy questions for you to come up with? I do kind of think that way. I like to think contrary. Yeah, yeah. That the reason I asked that is because I've kind of noticed that sometimes is like, it's actually good. It's good to be able to think that way because then you know how to, um, address I want to try to address those. Yeah. Which is, which is great. Um, I think the, the answer to that is, is we have to understand what it means to be spiritually dead, the soul to be dead. And that means to be separated from, from God. So in terms of dead, we might think that that means like gone, no longer functioning, our souls still very much functioning, even if it's if it's dead. Okay, this is another way, you know, this is why the Bible like you have to, uh, put your thinking cap on a lot of times when you're studying the Bible and this is one of those is like the soul, even though it's dead, doesn't mean it's not functioning anymore. It just means that it doesn't have life and like specifically eternal life. So here's the thing. Our our souls are actually immortal, but they're not eternal in the sense like internal, like they have eternal like life, the what true life is and true life. The the Bible describes as in is in relationship with God. So souls. Um, here's, here's another thing. The Bible is, you know, it tells us about souls is like even the people who die and who are not believers, their bodies and souls are separated. Their, their soul is still, um, living is the wrong word, but exists still exists. And it will, it will exist forever. Um, now we get into, you know, you start pulling on these threads and the, the ball of yarn is, is, is almost infinite, you know, like there are some people who believe in annihilationism and all of that, which is, um, in, in error. Uh, but we believe because the scripture in Jesus in particular, um, teaches, uh, repeatedly that the souls can continue on for eternity. So they're immortal. Yeah. Um, not by nature, but because God wills that they be so. And, um, and so I, I to get back to your, you're like, okay, what about my question? Um, yes, the, the souls are still very much in existence. Um, but they don't have the capability of experiencing the life that Paul calls in. First Timothy six is truly life, which is the one that is connected in relationship with, um, Jesus. And so if we go back to the Garden of Eden and I'll be done on this point, but when Adam and Eve sinned, um, you got it told them And the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die. Mhm. Okay. Um. And they ate of it, but they didn't fall over dead. They didn't physically die. Physically die. Mhm. But what happened is, is that they be the result, the consequences of separation from God, which is pictured by, uh, being exiled from the Garden of Eden. And every person since comes into the world in that state. Yes. Um, and that's why the, the whole point of the message on Sunday is our soul has to be made alive if we're actually going to be able to love God. Amen. Amen. That's good. Well, speaking to that, you you are your focus. Passage on Sunday was Isaiah fifty five and God invites us to come to him. Uh, he's what kind of the main point you were encouraging us to do? Uh, and you got our attention at one point and said, there are those who think they have come to God and they really haven't. Um, so how can people determine if they're a person who thinks they've come to God, but they really haven't. Versus someone who's maybe just struggling with assurance of salvation. They really are saved. They have come to God, but they're just struggling with that. What does that look like? Yeah, I think it would be good for both of us actually to comment on this. You've been a pastor for a long time and have a lot of experience discipling people. I think that this is a common struggle that people experience. And it's, it's, again, um, it's a challenge here because we, we do want people to, um, wrestle with whether or not they have come to Christ. And of all the things that I say, this is one that probably gets people's hackles up the most. Um, like you, you're telling people that they should question whether they are in the faith. And my response is always, well, it's not actually what I'm telling them. It's what the Bible tells them. You know, Paul says second Corinthians like, examine yourselves. Yeah. Examine yourself. Test yourselves to see whether you are in the faith. Don't you know that Christ Jesus is in you? Unless you fail to meet the test and you back up? You know, almost all of second Corinthians is about these different tests that we can that we can take and that we're to give. We're to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. That's actually Jesus. Um, and, um, so, um, we, we do want to regularly examine ourselves. Um, but, uh, I think at the other end of that, we, we don't also want people to be wrestling with whether they are saved in the sense of like, it's it causes anxiety and worry and all of that. We, we do want people to have assurance of salvation. And you can have assurance of salvation. So I think it's if, if we go to the, um, John's first letter, he gives, he gives basically three broad tests. Um, do you believe the truth? Are you walking in the light? Uh, which is obedience. Obedience. Um, and are you loving your, your brother? Yeah. Loving one another. Yeah. And not perfect. Not perfectly. In fact, he even says, if you say that you you're without sin, then you're a liar. The truth is not in you because you're not, you know. So, um, it's not that we don't ever sin and we do any of these things perfectly. But is that the here's how I like to put it. And then I really do want to hear how you would answer this question. It's not about perfection, it's about direction. Assurance comes from the overall direction of our lives and not about ever being being perfect, or even most of the time, close to perfect. Like where? Where are we headed? And when we, when we fall and we sin? Does we does God pick us back up again? And I say, God pick us back up again because he does he okay, say, all right, I'm here's some discipline. Like, here's something I'm going to bring, but I'm going to, I'm going to make sure that you, you, you get back up and can we see that pattern in, in our lives? Right? Yeah, yeah, I would agree with all of that. And I have used similar arguments as I've talked with people. I'm just actually in the last month or so, I've been communicating with a couple of different people who've been wrestling with this fear of what if I die at a certain time and I haven't confessed certain sin. And would I go to hell for that? Um, and these are people who profess to believe and follow Jesus, the disciples of Christ. And so we actually went to that second Corinthians passage. Um, they brought that up about examining yourself to see whether or not you really are in the faith and wondering, do they fail the test? And I also talked about, yes, we. Paul calls us to examine ourselves, but he's also look at the context. He's he's writing a letter to the Corinthian church. These are believers he's writing to. And then when you look a little bit after where he tells them to examine themselves, he. He says that his prayer for them is that they would be. Um, I believe it was restored. I'd have to look at it up again. Um, it wasn't that they'd get saved. It was that they'd be restored and, and so it was not, it was an issue of dealing with sin and being restored back to the Lord. It was not an issue of are you saved in the first place or not? Right. Um, and that was his prayer for them. So I think we have to always look at that in context. And then when we see, look, all the other scriptures in the New Testament that point to the salvation is by grace through faith. It's all a work of God. Mhm. It's not based on our works. There's just so a volume of mountain of evidence for that, that we just can't rely on our own, you know, work to, to make that happen. Yeah. That's good. There's another passage in Hebrews six that that can get us tied into knots. Yes. Uh, if, if, if we let it, uh, of those ones is, you know, if you've come to Christ and then you've fallen away, how how is there any opportunity for, for repentance? We're crucifying Christ all over again. And it's like, oh, this seems to mean that people can lose their salvation. And if you lose your salvation, you can't ever get it back again. But then the author goes on and he says, but we're sure of better things for you. Think from you and in you things that belong to salvation. Yes. Okay. And but I'm we're sure of these things because we've seen the, the evidence of these things, um, in your life. And so, um, it's a warning. It's one of those warning, those warning passages and, and my, my view is like these warning passages that seem to indicate that you can lose your salvation. They actually are one of the means God uses to keep us safe. I would agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. He, he preserves us in our salvation. And in my own experience, it develops a holy fear within me that, um, but then I also see that as confirmation and encouragement, like the Lord continues to call me back to him when I stray. And we sing that in our worship songs. Lord, I'm prone to wander. Lord, I feel it prone to leave the God I love. And that doesn't mean we lost our salvation. We have to come back to him. But, you know, he calls us back. Yeah. That's great. Thank you. Well, this series, uh, we have are learning to love the Lord our God with all of our souls. And you previewed that our souls need four things, and we've got a four week series. So I just thought maybe you might be able to give us a little. What can we look forward to in the coming weeks in this series? What are you excited about? Yeah, I mean, um, I'm a little hesitant to answer because it's just like, okay, do you really want to tell people what's coming or you don't want to give it? Give a free, you know, like the preview for a show, I guess at the end. Um, but so this week we're going to talk about hope for the soul and we're going to be in Psalm forty two and forty three where, um, the, the psalmist, I'm not exactly sure who it was, was one of those somewhat anonymous ones, but it talks about being downcast. He's actually talking to himself and says, oh my soul, why are you so downcast? And he repeatedly does. It comes back to this and he says, Hope in God, hope in God, hope in God. And and so various, you know, one of the things that we're specifically going to talk about this week is this idea of down being downcast, or what the term we would use today is depression. Um, and that's, um, it's a real, it's a real struggle for, for a lot of people. And, and I would probably argue that for almost everybody, it's a, it's a struggle to some degree at some point in their lives. Some, some people more than, than others. And so, um, this is a real, you know, this is really where, where, where we live. And my point is going to be is that, um, that being downcast, uh, depressed and there will nuance what we mean by depression and all of that and talk about, and this is actually where we're going to come back and we're going to see the soul and body are important to understand this. Have, have, have a place to play in that. But, um, that is one of the primary reasons that we don't love God is because we, we, we get in these, these places where life is so heavy, uh, and our, maybe our circumstances are so difficult. Um, or, uh, we've gotten to a place where it could be sin, it could be a health issue, a relational issue. I mean, there's just a whole host of those things. And, and then there's even times where people have, um, they struggle with it because they have, um, some type of medical, there's a real legitimate medical issue. But, but in all of those things, is there, is there any here's the word hope for us. And there can be. And I'm going to make the case that that doesn't matter what the cause of of the depression is. And so we can find hope. And in finding hope is actually, um, where we have life. Now, now there's hope. Okay. I have this hope. Well, that can be something that aids us greatly in actually loving, loving God. That's awesome. I'm excited for it. I hope those of you listening are excited for that too. That's just next week. We've got two more weeks after that. We got rest and that'll be the the most famous passage. Um, in terms of probably the soul, if you can. Jesus says, come find rest for your soul. Mhm. Um, that's one of those passages that's been used so often. I think we've maybe failed to recognize what Jesus is actually saying there. Be good to take a fresh look at that. And then the last one, um, is we're going to get back to that Mark eight passage. Jesus says, if you want to gain your soul, you have to be willing to lose your life. Um, and, uh, that's a, that will probably be the most challenging of all. And that's why we're ending there. That's great. That's great. Well, thank you Chris. Appreciate that. We're excited about the rest of the series. And if you have questions, we would encourage you to send them to ask at further podcast dot com. Yeah. Paul, before we end, let me say thanks for for hosting. Yeah, you did a great job. Well, thanks. Yeah, it was fun to do that and fun to have the conversation with you. So appreciate that. Join us again next week when Chris and Brenton will be back. And in the meantime, we hope that you'll continue to experience Jesus and the true life in your soul. We'll see you next week.