Brenton
 Welcome back to Further. I am Britton Grimm. Chris Carr, how you doing?

[00:01:34:10 - 00:01:37:14]
Chris
 Good. Ready for our 150th episode here.

[00:01:37:14 - 00:01:41:02]
Brenton
 150? Did you think we'd make it this far? I don't know.

[00:01:42:03 - 00:01:43:13]å
Brenton
 Every milestone I ask you that.

[00:01:43:13 - 00:01:49:04]
Chris
 Well, we just decided we would give it a try three years ago. And here we still are.

[00:01:50:09 - 00:01:51:12]
Brenton
 Well, it's good.

[00:01:53:02 - 00:01:54:22]
Brenton
 Yeah, I don't think I thought we'd make it that far.

[00:01:54:22 - 00:01:56:02]
Chris
 Oh, well. I'm kidding.

[00:01:56:02 - 00:01:56:15]
Brenton
 Throw that out.

[00:01:56:15 - 00:02:01:09]
Chris
 So yeah. Is that your cynicism showing? No, not me.

[00:02:03:13 - 00:02:04:09]
Chris
 You're still going strong.

[00:02:04:09 - 00:02:06:15]
Brenton
 Yeah, no, it's good. All right.

[00:02:07:17 - 00:02:17:07]
Brenton
 So thanks for your sermon this week. I think this probably landed pretty heavy for a lot of people, hopefully. It was helpful, but I'm looking forward to a conversation about it today.

[00:02:18:21 - 00:02:21:09]
Chris
 Yeah, how many of those symptoms did you check off?

[00:02:21:09 - 00:02:44:03]
Brenton
 All of them. I could probably name more, too. All of them. I don't know about all of them. You're an overachiever. Now, there were certainly some that hit for sure. So let's start with-- you pointed out that Jesus says, come to me. And he doesn't say come to a set of doctrines or merely a way of life.

[00:02:45:21 - 00:02:55:16]
Brenton
 But he says, come to himself. What are some common substitutes that Christians turn to instead of actually coming to him?

[00:02:58:05 - 00:03:02:09]
Chris
 So you mean like they-- so it's Christians here. So it's not--

[00:03:03:20 - 00:03:19:07]
Chris
 we're talking in terms of their religion or their spirituality. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Well, I think that that's-- two of them are what I was actually pointing out in the sermon. One is doctrine, as we hold to this--

[00:03:20:19 - 00:03:28:02]
Chris
 sometimes it's doctrinal systems, like our theological system. We can name a whole bunch of them.

[00:03:29:08 - 00:03:45:14]
Chris
 Or sometimes it's simply like they hold to, I believe, in the Word of God. And even the Bible themselves, they come to the Bible. So they're studying their Bible, reading a lot, going to Bible studies and those things.

[00:03:47:05 - 00:04:00:18]
Chris
 And sometimes it's church. This is my religious various activities, but especially coming to church. And so it's actually about that than rather seeing theology,

[00:04:02:07 - 00:04:28:12]
Chris
 even the Bible itself, and certainly the church as really a means to an end and not the end itself. So we can make the Bible an idol. That might sound strange to people, but that's what we're really coming to instead of Jesus as a person and in relationship with Him.

[00:04:30:18 - 00:04:52:01]
Chris
 So yeah, I think those would be the primary ones that we mentioned. For Christians, obviously, there's other things that we can be tempted to come to instead of Christ Himself. But those would be the things that we bring up all the time and that we all do struggle with that can prevent us from truly coming to Christ.

[00:04:52:01 - 00:05:01:09]
Brenton
 Yeah. I think one thing that came up as I was getting ready for this was, I don't know, it's probably not as mainstream as it was.

[00:05:02:15 - 00:05:11:01]
Brenton
 But this kind of moralistic, therapeutic deism, the way we use religion as a means to fix our problems.

[00:05:12:14 - 00:05:27:04]
Brenton
 And I think it was culturally very popular. But I wonder if some of that has subtly left its mark now, past the Oprah and the Deep Octoper days.

[00:05:29:09 - 00:05:32:23]
Brenton
 What kind of remnants of that are left over?

[00:05:34:07 - 00:05:38:09]
Chris
 Well, let's first explain what MTD is for everybody.

[00:05:39:23 - 00:05:56:13]
Brenton
 Yeah, I mean, the idea, I guess, as far as I could tell, was using Christianity, using religion to really set a basis for morality, right?

[00:05:58:04 - 00:06:16:09]
Brenton
 But in a way that is more individual focused, right? So it's very focused on our needs and what can this religion do for it. And the deism part is like, God is not present. God is just a means to-- Unless you need Him. Sure.

[00:06:16:09 - 00:06:30:03]
Chris
 Right? Unless you want something from Him. In some way. He's there to give me what I want when I want it. But He's not going to intrude in my life. Right. So yeah, I mean, the therapeutic part is religion is primarily about helping people.

[00:06:30:03 - 00:06:31:03]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:06:31:03 - 00:06:36:02]
Chris
 Moralistic is the purpose of religion is to make people be good.

[00:06:37:12 - 00:06:39:09]
Chris
 Good people, whatever that may mean.

[00:06:40:17 - 00:06:52:06]
Chris
 And then the deism we just talked about. And this is closely tied to expressive individualism. It's really interesting that you brought this up, because this has actually been something I've been thinking about and may even touch on it more.

[00:06:53:23 - 00:07:03:19]
Chris
 This coming Sunday, but we used to be a kind of a rugged individualism culture that was an American value.

[00:07:05:08 - 00:07:09:15]
Chris
 But what that means is that happiness was tied to self-fulfillment.

[00:07:10:18 - 00:07:20:10]
Chris
 And really, this is the American way, is that happiness is tied to self-fulfillment. We all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Those things are tied together.

[00:07:22:03 - 00:08:10:20]
Chris
 And so it used to be that just that kind of, that rugged individualism, I'm on my own, I can do it. Now there's a self-expression that's tied to it. So we talk about expressive individualism. So now it's this like, I'm self-expression authenticity. I am who I am, and you need to accept who I am, and like all of those kind of things. So I know, like in our church, we have a wide age demographic. And so we have more, some people always say expressive individualism, older people might be like, that's not me at all, but there is the rugged individualism very much so. And both of these things are problematic in coming to Christ. Individualism by its nature.

[00:08:12:13 - 00:08:38:14]
Chris
 And this is, this maybe would not be terribly appreciated, but this is a fundamental problem with the American way. And it always has been from the very founding of our country is that there has been a, and this is built off of the, it's built off of the enlightenment, which our founders were deeply influenced by the enlightenment.

[00:08:40:17 - 00:08:56:15]
Chris
 And so that's not to say again, that like there's a lot of good things about the American way. But for us to just totally accept it and not to see that this tendency to be our desire, to be our own,

[00:08:58:04 - 00:09:03:08]
Chris
 is fundamentally in conflict with following Jesus.

[00:09:04:17 - 00:09:06:15]
Chris
 And that's really what we saw in that passage,

[00:09:07:15 - 00:09:11:03]
Chris
 this Sunday, and we're gonna see it again, maybe even more starkly this coming Sunday.

[00:09:11:03 - 00:09:36:22]
Brenton
 Yeah, I don't know. A lot of me wants to push back against what you're saying there. Well, I think that there's different arenas of life. When you talk about the founders, they're primarily talking about our separation from the ruling powers. But that doesn't necessarily take anything away from our relationship with God.

[00:09:37:22 - 00:09:43:04]
Brenton
 So the way we relate to government is gonna be very different than the way we relate to God.

[00:09:44:06 - 00:09:56:22]
Brenton
 So we can relate to God in a more collectivist way through the church, right? I think we should, but that doesn't, again, different arenas, we're gonna treat differently.

[00:09:58:10 - 00:10:06:14]
Chris
 Yeah, I just think the problem with that is for us to think that one doesn't bleed over into the other.

[00:10:08:13 - 00:10:17:04]
Chris
 Very much does. Again, I'm not down, I'm very thankful to be an American.

[00:10:18:06 - 00:11:06:15]
Chris
 I think there is a lot of truth to American exceptionalism. I think that God has blessed our country in some very even really unique ways in that there was, still is some underpinning of the Judeo-Christian ethic so to speak, which is good. But I think the problem we can get into today is where we think that this new expressive individualism today is taking us away from what was right and true and not to see that there's been a measure of individualism and in some ways significant for a long, long time.

[00:11:06:15 - 00:11:20:10]
Brenton
 Yeah, I think that's fair. So I guess to dive a little bit deeper is the practical side of this. How do we distinguish between genuinely coming to Christ when we've actually come to Him

[00:11:21:10 - 00:11:26:03]
Brenton
 as opposed to simply kind of using spirituality as another form of self-medication?

[00:11:26:03 - 00:11:32:07]
Chris
 Well, I think that's where the yoke illustration is so helpful is,

[00:11:33:23 - 00:11:43:13]
Chris
 are we actually following Him in the sense of that following means obeying.

[00:11:45:20 - 00:11:48:07]
Chris
 It means modeling our life after Him.

[00:11:50:22 - 00:12:16:03]
Chris
 In the first century and the rabbis in those days, if you were following them, the best thing that could be said about a follower is that the dust from that the rabbi was kicking up would land on you. That's how close you are. Like they're walking in very dusty roads. And so if you were having the dust of your rabbi fall under you, that means that you were in close,

[00:12:18:02 - 00:12:29:10]
Chris
 almost contact with Him and you were trying to model your life after Him and listen to Him and His teaching and all that. And so, you know,

[00:12:30:22 - 00:12:34:15]
Chris
 am I actually wearing the yoke?

[00:12:39:04 - 00:12:40:04]
Chris
 Simple answer.

[00:12:40:04 - 00:12:48:17]
Brenton
 Yeah, we'll get back to the idea of the yoke a little later. I think that'll be interesting. But back to the symptoms,

[00:12:50:02 - 00:13:01:02]
Brenton
 some of the symptoms you listed like hurriedness, workaholism, restlessness, are things that our culture rewards, right? These are things that are seen as good.

[00:13:02:07 - 00:13:05:08]
Brenton
 How can we discern the difference between

[00:13:06:13 - 00:13:16:06]
Brenton
 our healthy diligence, our healthy hard work and what would be relevant here of just being exhausted in your soul?

[00:13:17:12 - 00:13:28:18]
Chris
 This is a really great question because I think even for me, it's hard to really clearly answer this question.

[00:13:31:05 - 00:14:06:01]
Chris
 I think I'm just trying to still very much figure this out on my own because we do want to work hard and we actually see calls in Scripture to do that. We see the apostles, especially Paul, you know, even talking about like working hard. And it's, in some ways, it's a virtue or it can be a virtue, but we can also make it, you know, like again, what's the point of it? Is it, are we working hard for the Lord?

[00:14:07:08 - 00:14:14:05]
Chris
 Are we working hard because that's, you know, working hard has become like a part of our identity.

[00:14:16:03 - 00:14:57:17]
Chris
 And so you use the word fundamentally exhausted. I think that that's a great thing to think about. Are you a healthy diligence? You know, you might get tired, and maybe you're in a period where you get exhausted, but if you're running on an exhausted on a regular basis, that's when you've run into the problem. So I do it this way. And again, I'm still very much learning this, but you can maybe run at 110 RPMs. I'm not a car guy, so maybe that's not even a good example. It's pretty low. 100, yeah, like pretty low, yeah. So let me use percentages. I'm much better at math.

[00:14:59:07 - 00:15:15:14]
Chris
 You maybe can run at 110% like occasionally, like when it calls for it. But if you're running even at like 100% all the time, you're gonna get yourself in a problem. And I've just learned this.

[00:15:16:23 - 00:15:30:22]
Chris
 This is one of my biggest struggles is that I can just run 100, 110% way more often than I should.

[00:15:32:16 - 00:15:34:20]
Chris
 And so, you know,

[00:15:36:05 - 00:15:41:00]
Chris
 that's just like, if you're running ragged all the time,

[00:15:42:09 - 00:15:54:06]
Chris
 then I think that's different than, you know, it's interesting to see us, Lewis, I talk about him a lot, but he used to say, you know, like only lazy people work hard.

[00:15:56:10 - 00:16:31:04]
Chris
 And so again, it's exaggeration. It's a statement. But what he's saying is that what his point is, is that you're too lazy to actually examine your life and to actually discipline yourself to get control of how much time you're spending working and these kind of things. And if you actually were being diligent, you wouldn't work so much and run so hard. You'd actually say, I really need to rest so that I can actually be my best when I am working.

[00:16:33:01 - 00:16:38:02]
Chris
 So he wasn't actually saying, like he'd say it literally, but that was kind of the point.

[00:16:38:02 - 00:16:41:09]
Brenton
 I mean, work can rule you instead of you ruling over your work.

[00:16:41:09 - 00:17:09:05]
Chris
 Right, right. And so we tend to be busy, but are we really accomplishing the things that are the most important? And that's really what gets in the way too, is that the difference between healthy, diligent and fundamentally exhausted is a lot of times we don't give ourselves to the things that are the most important. We're giving ourselves to a lot of stuff, but we're not actually giving ourselves to care of our soul.

[00:17:10:17 - 00:17:27:12]
Brenton
 Yeah. Well, so in your experience, like what is, you realize that about yourself, what's the next step? Because often like you said on Sunday, it can feel like, well, I just need a vacation. A lot of times you come back from that and feel the exact same, right? So what is the next step?

[00:17:27:12 - 00:17:29:22]
Chris
 There's a couple of things and,

[00:17:31:01 - 00:17:35:21]
Chris
 you know, if my wife listens to this and she will,

[00:17:37:01 - 00:17:50:22]
Chris
 she'd probably be shaking her head at me because I'm in a period right now where I'm literally not going 110, it's like 120 and very interesting time again for preaching this sermon.

[00:17:53:09 - 00:18:46:06]
Chris
 But that used to be more my way of life that now it's just a, this is a period of time. Some of it's by my choosing and some of it's just by just kind of circumstances and what's going on in my life. But in general, one of the things that I've implemented in recent years, even I've done this together, is where we have essentially what would be considered, you know, like a Sabbath day. Like there's a day during the week that we just do, try to do little if any work. And it's not Sunday for us because Sunday is a work day. So, you know, like I would encourage a lot of people to make Sunday something like this, but for us it has to be a different day because that just doesn't work, especially for me, but then for her too.

[00:18:47:08 - 00:19:00:05]
Chris
 And so just like in, and one of the things I've had to do with that is like, then the sermon has to be done by a certain time and that it is what it is at that point.

[00:19:01:08 - 00:19:10:06]
Chris
 And just, but that's really like trusting the Lord rather than my effort. And that's been so hard and it still is a struggle.

[00:19:11:13 - 00:19:14:04]
Chris
 Another thing is just getting better at saying no.

[00:19:16:17 - 00:19:30:18]
Chris
 You know, and there's some things you say no to. And I tell people, I told somebody yesterday, every time you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. So make sure that your nose, you use your nose well.

[00:19:32:11 - 00:19:39:20]
Chris
 And, you know, the other thing is under trying to understand your humanity and that you are limited.

[00:19:41:23 - 00:19:57:00]
Chris
 And I think a lot of times this is what it is for me. Again, I'm better at it, but still struggle is like trying to think that, just have this idea that you can do more than you really can.

[00:19:58:14 - 00:20:10:09]
Chris
 And we are limited human beings and we just have to accept that. And that's nothing to be ashamed of because we are a created being. We're not the creator of the universe.

[00:20:12:14 - 00:20:34:10]
Brenton
 Now I appreciate you bringing up Sabbath. I think it's such a gift that God has given us and there's so much grace in that, but also just knowing His people, knowing that we need rest. And so, you know, working that in. I think it's so easy to ignore that and think I don't have time to rest.

[00:20:36:00 - 00:20:51:19]
Chris
 Well, and let me just point out, when rest, it's not like taking, I mean, can be certainly taking a nap or sleeping in and all that kind of stuff. For me, it's more, I'm not like, I'm not working.

[00:20:53:05 - 00:21:04:15]
Chris
 And I'm not working for the church and I'm not working for even around home or anything. I'm doing stuff that I enjoy, spending even I spend time together.

[00:21:06:04 - 00:21:23:02]
Chris
 And it's just a time to let yourself breathe and hopefully also spending more time with the Lord or reading some things that are not, it's not for me to prepare sermon or whatever, or for this next speaking thing that I have or whatever.

[00:21:24:11 - 00:21:58:21]
Chris
 And it's hard. I know like this is, people hear this is like, it's one of the hardest things that I've ever tried to implement in my life is to actually do it. Because I'm, and then, you know, again, this is so interesting because last year we're now a year and a half after Eva's accident. And also we're, you know, this whole all in journey that we've been in, which is required more things from me in terms of leading the church than normal.

[00:22:01:03 - 00:22:13:14]
Chris
 So it's like, all of this is interesting, but I just, I find that I, like, if I'm not doing something, something feels like wrong. So it feels wrong,

[00:22:15:23 - 00:22:16:05]
Chris
 right?

[00:22:16:05 - 00:22:18:22]
Brenton
 Might be a warning sign. Might be a warning sign.

[00:22:18:22 - 00:22:22:20]
Chris
 Yeah, but it's like, if you can't do nothing

[00:22:24:07 - 00:22:29:08]
Chris
 and like it without you, like something's wrong, like, or you feel guilty,

[00:22:30:10 - 00:22:47:02]
Chris
 then that's fine. That's why I bring this up as to why Sabbath has been so important is it just, it helps to you to re-engage and to be like, life isn't all about working and doing things and God,

[00:22:48:16 - 00:22:50:05]
Chris
 it's also a way to enjoy life.

[00:22:51:20 - 00:23:10:21]
Chris
 I think that that's what we're missing a lot of times is that we were so busy doing life and trying to knock things out and accomplish them and all that kind of stuff that like, life flies by and do we really, do we really miss it? Do we really enjoy it? And we can, we can miss it.

[00:23:13:08 - 00:23:21:13]
Brenton
 One thing you made clear on Sundays that Jesus doesn't merely offer relief from our burdens, but he offers a yoke.

[00:23:23:03 - 00:23:32:08]
Brenton
 And so this passage isn't ultimately about escaping authority or responsibility, but it's about coming under the correct authority.

[00:23:34:14 - 00:23:39:02]
Brenton
 How does that, like, just culturally, the way we think about freedom,

[00:23:40:09 - 00:23:44:09]
Brenton
 how does this differ and why is this

[00:23:45:15 - 00:23:47:20]
Brenton
 so counter-cultural to where we're at?

[00:23:49:17 - 00:23:55:21]
Chris
 Well, I feel like I talk about this all the time and we've already kind of touched on this, is that we,

[00:23:58:11 - 00:24:03:10]
Chris
 we just want to be in charge of our own life.

[00:24:05:18 - 00:24:11:13]
Chris
 Yeah. We think that freedom is being free from any type of constraints whatsoever.

[00:24:13:01 - 00:24:38:16]
Chris
 And it's as if we want to be, we want to be God. And if we understand the big story of the Bible, this is what got us into problem, trouble in the first place. And really, well, but it even extends back before that to Satan, like, Satan decided that he wanted to be God.

[00:24:40:12 - 00:24:41:17]
Chris
 So, yeah.

[00:24:43:05 - 00:24:52:13]
Chris
 And so, like, in an effort to be God, he throws, you know, it's like, I'm gonna lead a coup.

[00:24:54:09 - 00:24:55:18]
Chris
 And then, like, that's,

[00:24:56:23 - 00:25:02:07]
Chris
 but again, the problem is, here's Bob Dylan. So, you know, Paul Simon, Bob Dylan.

[00:25:03:20 - 00:25:04:19]
Brenton
 Showing your relevance here.

[00:25:04:19 - 00:25:05:16]
Chris
 Yeah, right.

[00:25:06:19 - 00:25:07:15]
Chris
 50 years ago.

[00:25:09:05 - 00:25:10:11]
Chris
 You gotta serve somebody.

[00:25:11:15 - 00:25:15:21]
Chris
 And so it's just like, we are created beings.

[00:25:17:18 - 00:25:28:10]
Chris
 So this option of, you know, we're, and as creative beings, that means we're created as worshipers. So we, it's not so much what we're gonna do as who we are.

[00:25:30:03 - 00:25:34:13]
Chris
 It is what we do, but we do what we do because we are who we are.

[00:25:36:02 - 00:25:41:05]
Chris
 And we're worshipers. And so it's not like the choice of,

[00:25:42:06 - 00:25:46:10]
Chris
 like, we get to be the one that everybody else worships.

[00:25:48:19 - 00:26:06:20]
Chris
 Including ourselves, we don't even ultimately worship ourself, so to speak. It's like, we're looking to other things to give us the meaning and the worth that we have to get outside of ourselves because we can't give it to ourselves. We can't give ourselves worth. It's, you know,

[00:26:09:02 - 00:26:13:04]
Chris
 but that's just totally foreign to our cultures, the old things.

[00:26:13:04 - 00:26:14:21]
Brenton
 Right, yeah.

[00:26:17:22 - 00:26:24:22]
Brenton
 I think that this is where we can kind of get ourselves in a mess too of like, you know,

[00:26:27:04 - 00:26:52:00]
Brenton
 what this looks like day to day, taking up Christ's yoke. But we can so easily turn that into another burden to carry, right? How, I don't even know how to ask this question, but like, it's so easy to, you know, the spiritual habits, the way that we connect to Jesus becomes such a burden because we're not doing it. And so there's guilt around that.

[00:26:53:12 - 00:26:54:21]
Brenton
 I don't know, talk me through this.

[00:26:56:01 - 00:26:57:12]
Chris
 Well, yeah, I mean,

[00:26:59:14 - 00:27:02:11]
Chris
 what you're talking about is real, like big time real.

[00:27:04:02 - 00:27:11:16]
Chris
 I think it goes back to what we talked about at the beginning is that we come to a person, not to spiritual habits.

[00:27:13:00 - 00:27:26:02]
Chris
 And that when we look at, I think about the word, trying to learn like, this is about engaging with the word and Christ is the word.

[00:27:27:13 - 00:27:32:06]
Chris
 So it's not about checking it off the list.

[00:27:35:07 - 00:27:42:18]
Chris
 And, you know, I did this, I did this, and that's what we can so easily make it. I feel good about myself because I did this.

[00:27:42:18 - 00:27:44:05]
Brenton
 It'll make us feel good about ourselves, yeah.

[00:27:44:05 - 00:28:09:13]
Chris
 And if I don't do it, I'll feel bad in terms of like that. And even, you know, we could talk about prayer and we could talk about church and like all these things. I use the analogy of wings on a plane, or maybe a better one is the sail on a sailboat. You know, why do you put the sail up so that you can catch the wind?

[00:28:10:23 - 00:28:13:07]
Chris
 And why do you read your Bible so that you can,

[00:28:14:13 - 00:28:21:22]
Chris
 that's one of the primary ways that I spend with my Savior and with Him.

[00:28:23:09 - 00:28:47:07]
Chris
 And it's unfortunate, tragically unfortunate, that we, I think even in the way that we've talked about discipleship, we just really overemphasize in some ways, reading the Bible and praying and having a quiet time and even the spiritual habits, like they're super important. But I think we've emphasized them to this point that we've missed the point.

[00:28:49:17 - 00:29:43:19]
Chris
 And so trying to recognize that like it's not a matter of should or shouldn't so much as like, here's where I can step into this relationship more. You know, it's just like with your wife, you know, like, do you have to do certain things? Like, do you have to set aside time with her? Oh, sure. Yeah, right, yeah. But is it just like, okay, I'm gonna give Nikki Friday every week, like, oh good, I feel good, I gave it to her. Well, that's not the point, right? The point is to connect with her and to enjoy your relationship. And all of that.

[00:29:43:19 - 00:29:47:02]
Brenton
 And if it's not that, it probably points to a deeper issue.

[00:29:47:02 - 00:30:16:06]
Chris
 Right, right, yeah. And so again, it's trying to, I think we have so much of this idea of Jesus is literally an idea. It's a thought. We are so, we are so, it's a thought. We are so, you know, we are so prone to, as one author calls it, be thinking things.

[00:30:17:10 - 00:30:17:14]
Chris
 Yeah.

[00:30:19:08 - 00:30:22:23]
Chris
 And that's our, you know,

[00:30:24:06 - 00:30:31:01]
Chris
 Christianity so much. We're so much in our head and not enough in our really heart and not even go deeper in our soul.

[00:30:32:16 - 00:30:32:21]
Brenton
 Okay.

[00:30:35:09 - 00:30:41:13]
Brenton
 You did make the distinction that Jesus offers rest but not necessarily ease, right?

[00:30:43:17 - 00:30:55:01]
Brenton
 Talk about this, like, does what we're talking about change when we're in suffering or grief or uncertainty, like when things are hard,

[00:30:57:01 - 00:30:59:08]
Brenton
 how would you apply this to that?

[00:31:00:14 - 00:31:02:02]
Chris
 Well, yeah, that,

[00:31:03:19 - 00:31:15:01]
Chris
 what the rest that Jesus is offering, so just think about the disciples, like their lives, especially once Jesus ascended, did not get easier.

[00:31:16:16 - 00:31:19:11]
Chris
 They didn't get less burdens, they got a lot more.

[00:31:20:23 - 00:31:36:23]
Chris
 And so Jesus isn't actually saying, you know, I'm giving you rest from your problems. He's actually saying, I'm giving you a new way to relate to and to walk through

[00:31:39:09 - 00:31:49:19]
Chris
 your struggles and your, really your burdens that you face in life. And that is by taking my yoko on me. You're learning from me, which means you are,

[00:31:50:19 - 00:31:55:08]
Chris
 you know, like your character's being transformed.

[00:31:56:09 - 00:32:14:21]
Chris
 Your heart's being transformed, your mind's being transformed. And in that way, then you, you know, you take the apostle Paul, he says in Philippians 4, "Whether I have little or whether I have much, I've learned the secret of contentment. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." That's not,

[00:32:16:04 - 00:32:43:13]
Chris
 he's not talking about, you know, like you can win the football game from him or you can get a good grade on your test through, is there a hymn? That's not, you know, through Christ. That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about like, whatever you've got going on in your life, you can be content in that moment. What you think about that's a massive statement. Like, and Paul's writing Philippians from, he's in jail. Okay. And he's saying, yeah, I mean, it's miserable here. He was miserable.

[00:32:45:05 - 00:32:46:18]
Chris
 But he's like, I'm good.

[00:32:48:18 - 00:32:55:15]
Chris
 That's what Jesus is offering, is the ability to be good when life is not good.

[00:33:00:02 - 00:33:04:05]
Chris
 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's riling around?

[00:33:04:05 - 00:33:21:08]
Brenton
 I don't know. I think it's, I think it's easy sometimes to pretend like we're good through a lot of that stuff because we think we should be as well. Right. Right. I think actually, you know, it makes you wonder where Paul was actually at with that. But like,

[00:33:23:05 - 00:33:24:19]
Brenton
 that's hard. It's really hard.

[00:33:26:01 - 00:34:15:16]
Chris
 Yeah. And I think we've got to clarify here, but being good doesn't mean like he wasn't struggling. For sure. It doesn't mean like he wasn't like distraught. We, you know, first Corinthians, he's, I'm sorry, second Corinthians one, he's talking about, we were so overcome that we despaired of life itself. I mean, like that's to go back to two weeks ago, like there's a, talk about distress and depression, like, and like he's struggling, but he's still underneath of that all. He, he's still able to trust in the Lord and walk with him and hold on to hope. And that's what, that's the yoke that, that Jesus offers. And really if you, if you understand Matthew 11, you got to go back to Matthew five, six, and seven, which is the Sermon on the Mount.

[00:34:17:12 - 00:34:22:03]
Chris
 And what Jesus is saying is like, if you take my yoke upon you, this is the kind of people you will become,

[00:34:23:05 - 00:34:26:14]
Chris
 poor in spirit, meek, peacemakers,

[00:34:28:03 - 00:34:41:09]
Chris
 you know, those kinds of things, people who hunger and thirst after righteousness, that that's what you will become. And when we, when you are those things, you know, and even then talks about, you know, you'll be blessed when people persecute you and rejoice.

[00:34:43:09 - 00:35:13:00]
Chris
 And so, yeah, it's really moldiness. The yoke molds us into a certain type of person. And that person of course is, is Jesus. And what do we see Jesus is like for the joy who set before him, endured the cross. So he's enduring the cross. He's miserable. That's, that's the greatest understatement in the world. But he's just, but they're still underneath of this, this, this joy and this trust in all of that.

[00:35:13:00 - 00:35:14:18]
Brenton
 Yeah.

[00:35:16:00 - 00:35:24:10]
Brenton
 All right. We'll wrap up on this for, for someone who's spent years relating to God, you know, primarily through guilt,

[00:35:25:11 - 00:35:37:08]
Brenton
 disappointment or condemnation. Where, where would you suggest they begin and kind of reorienting their view of him? You know, you talked about the book, Gentle and Lowly.

[00:35:38:09 - 00:35:44:05]
Brenton
 What, what does it practically look like to start believing that Jesus really is gentle and lowly?

[00:35:47:09 - 00:35:54:21]
Chris
 Well, I mean, we could talk about this a long time, but I do think for a lot of people,

[00:35:57:09 - 00:36:08:12]
Chris
 they really do. And this may sound, you know, ironic given what I just said a bit, do we, do we really spend time in the word

[00:36:10:09 - 00:36:15:23]
Chris
 studying who Jesus is? Like who he truly is.

[00:36:17:14 - 00:36:29:01]
Chris
 And are we, we really giving ourselves to, to, to the times where we're, we're allowing the spirit to, to guide us into the truth about Jesus.

[00:36:30:09 - 00:36:47:19]
Chris
 And of course, Jesus reveals the father. So it's not just the son, but it's the father. So this is what God is like. Because a lot of times people are like, okay, we love, we love Jesus and we know Jesus, but, but like God, he seems scary and disappointed. But that's,

[00:36:48:21 - 00:36:55:00]
Chris
 no, no. If you want to know what God is like, we look at Jesus. So I think that that's the first answer is, is,

[00:36:56:09 - 00:38:04:02]
Chris
 I know from long experience that most Christians spend very little time actually in, in the word. So again, I'm not, it's not about the word, but, but, you know, like about just studying the Bible. But if you want to know Jesus, you have to get in those words. I think the other part of it is actually, this is why community is so important. And you have to have other people in your life who can actually put flesh and bones before you on what Jesus is, is like, like, so he's gentle and lonely. Well, you, you really would benefit from having gentle and lowly people in your life who are meek and humble to you, who accept you as you are, who are willing to show you grace and mercy. Now it's difficult because nobody's Jesus, right? We're not perfect and all humans will fail you, but this is what the church is meant to be. We are, we are meant to be, we have to take this right, but little Christ, little lower, lower C.

[00:38:05:14 - 00:38:05:19]
Chris
 Okay.

[00:38:07:00 - 00:38:38:09]
Chris
 And the problem again, I'll go back, I'll finish with this. Another problem with expressive individualism or rugged individualism is feel like we don't need anybody. We don't need other people. And sometimes it's like, it's just Jesus and me that Jesus never intended it to be that one and the New Testament makes it abundantly clear. And so, and I understand it's much easier for me to say, we need community, we need these kinds of people in our lives than for us to actually find it at times.

[00:38:40:08 - 00:38:52:17]
Chris
 So it's not like, I trust me, like I get that. I know it's very difficult at times for people, but we got to really pursue it.

[00:38:52:17 - 00:38:54:22]
Brenton
 All right. Well, we'll wrap there.

[00:38:56:05 - 00:39:03:13]
Brenton
 Thank you, Chris. Thank you. If you guys have any questions, ask at furtherpodcast.com. And yeah, I'll talk to you next week.