Welcome back to Further. I am Brenton Grimm.(...) This week we have Clay Baker. Welcome back. Howdy. And we have Jeremiah Landon. Welcome. Hi there. So I was trying to think, is this your second, third time? I think it's my third time. OK, cool. Well, good to have you here.

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Both of you guys started on hockey movies this week.

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Yeah. Yeah, how'd that happen?

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When I was reading through Haggai,

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actually the image of the movie D2, The Mighty Ducks came to mind.

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And as I said in my sermon,

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Haggai reminds me of a halftime speech. And just going back to that movie and that halftime speech where he rallies the troops and gets them to remember their identity and so remember what they're playing for rather than themselves. And so that's what came to mind immediately to me.

Straight to the sequel, too.

Yeah, the sequel is far better than the first one or the third one. Interesting.

Yeah, Jeremiah gets all the credit for that, because he actually shared that with me in advance. And that totally led me down that path. I remembered nothing of D2.

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But I had a hard time remembering

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G-rated or clean locker room scenes that I could share about. But I was totally tracking with him on the whole image there and came up with the movie Miracle, because I have watched that recently.

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Fair enough.

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So as you guys were prepping this week, what stuck out to you most in this book?

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I would say for me,

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really how applicable Haggai is to today. I was just seeing just a parallel of the things that the people in Haggai's day were struggling with or the things that we struggle with today

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and the things that Haggai confronts the people in his day and God confronts his people in that day with are the things that he confronts us with. And so that was what stuck out to me.

Yeah, same.(...) And especially the very specific example of being overly focused on our homes,

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just so culturally relevant today. And it's just so funny that 2,500 years ago, they had the same struggle, which of course, I mean, there's nothing new under the sun. But even in that specific way, it was the home and they were spending too much time and thought and energy on their own homes, even though for some of them, they were quite nice by their standards.(...) And yeah, we have the same issue today, many of us. Just hanging shiplap.

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OK.

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Confession, yes. So Jeremiah dropped shiplap. And I confess in my sermon that I'm not into DIY. I don't really do that stuff.

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And case in point, I had to ask somebody what shiplap was. I didn't know anything about it.

Which is interesting, because you brought up Chip and Joanna Gaines, that's all they talk about.

That's exactly what this person told me, that that was a total Chip and Joanna Gaines thing. And I said, well, that verifies my statement in my sermon that my only exposure to them is through her cookbook.

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(Laughing)

Just hanging some shiplap.

I do know what Wayne's coding is though. It's similar.

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Anyway,(...) so I am kind of curious, and Jeremiah, you hinted at this, in what ways do you most see parallels in this book to our day today? Like what kinds of things came into mind when you were prepping?

Yeah, and really the three things that I pointed out in my sermon are the things that I see as parallels.

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One being our priorities.

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We focus after the things that we want, like our houses,

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and like Clay alluded to just the material things.

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And then thinking about the temporary versus the eternal. And so like thinking about the my kingdom here,(...) what kingdoms that we're building here versus the kingdom that God is building and how it's far better and far greater than anything that we could ever build or even imagine.

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And then like as you get into the second chapter,

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just like being confronted with,

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are we trying to clean ourselves up

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versus being cleansed by the blood of the lamb? And so he was hinting at that, he was getting at that, and those are things that like we all struggle with.

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We all struggle to look at our priorities, our kingdom, try to clean ourselves up. And so those are some definite parallels.

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Both of you talked about the importance of the temple in that time.

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I wanna spend a little bit of time on that now. Why was the temple so important to God's people and to God for that matter at that point in history?

Yeah, I mean, it was the focal point of their community, their identity, their religion or faith. So everything they did revolved around the temple.(...) And that was also where God dwelled in his special presence. So in the Holy of Holies, the innermost room,

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he manifests his presence in such a powerful way with the Ark of the Covenant in the room as well.

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But it's so powerful that only the high priest could enter that room and only once a year only after certain sacrifices were made

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or else they would die. And so it just really speaks to how powerful that presence is, but also how meaningful that is and should be. And then all the sacrifices were made at the temple, that the whole priestly class, that's where they worked or served at the temple,

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the Levites as well.

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So it just,

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I thought about it. In an earlier draft of my sermon, I had a comparison to, I was trying to think of a comparison to today and I ended up taking it out for time's sake, but even then it was kind of lame.(...) It was just like the White House and that doesn't even come close. But I did think of the White House like in that was destroyed in the War of 1812. So it's interesting. We do have a historical parallel there and we rebuilt it after that. And I think the same would be true today if that were to get bombed or whatever, destroyed in some way. That's something that we as Americans, if we were to be in a position to rebuild our society, we would want to rebuild the White House because it not only is where the seat of the executive branch is, but it's also a symbol for our nation.

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But even that falls short because that's just governmental, whereas the temple was so much more than that.

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I guess a follow-up question. Do we know how long it would have been since the temple was destroyed to about when this was written?

Yeah, temple was destroyed in 586 BC

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prophesied in 520 BC, so 66 years.

So if you talk about how that's God's dwelling place with Israel at that point,

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how would they have communicated with God? What would have changed for them being that the temple was destroyed at that point?

(...) Well, they were, I mean, many of them were in exile in Babylon.(...) So if you read the book of Daniel, it takes place during the exile. And they really had to conform in many ways to the Babylonian culture.

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Now Daniel still prayed his prayers and got in trouble for it.

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But yeah, they weren't able to carry on like they were before. And so if you read the law in the Old Testament

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around Moses' time,

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so much of the prescriptions there, the rules, the regulations involve,(...) well, at that time it would have been the tabernacle before the temple was built, but the tabernacle was just an earlier form of the temple and just involved all the regulations that went into the sacrifices and how the priests were to operate within the tabernacle and what rooms they could or couldn't enter and when. There were different objects in the different spaces and none of that could be fulfilled or acted upon if it's not there. And so like how they, totally how they adapted to it, I don't know, I'd have to do more study, but I would have to think that it limited or inhibited their religious practices in a very significant way.

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Yeah, I was leaning in towards the, just this whole idea of the dwelling place of God with man and like just pointing out the fact that(...) this was God's mercy to his people because like as he created them, he created them to dwell with him,(...) but mankind sin separates that, but God still pursues his people and this is a way to show that. This is a way that he could dwell with his people. And so like there's just a lot of significance to that. And like you see this like throughout the entirety of scripture, even to the very, very end,(...) where it will one day be(...) where we will dwell with him perfectly and just how beautiful that is throughout all of scripture.

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And I touched on this a little bit and that was well said Jeremiah,

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but in losing the temple, the Israelites were at risk of losing their identity as a people.

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And because the Jews that didn't get exiled, they largely assimilated into the other cultures that came in or that were around them. And so their religious practices and in their cultural ways just got all mixed up.

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And so in the returned exiles(...) after they came back from Babylon, there was this great delay

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between the decree issuing in 538 BC from Cyrus and then they worked, they got a start for a couple of years, but 16 or so years went by then until Haggai's time. And there was no work being done. And they were seemingly content with that. I mean, maybe they said, yeah, this isn't the right time, but as we know, it's just an excuse and it would have never been a good time. And that's just a huge problem because then God just for all the things Jeremiah was saying, God wouldn't be able to display himself and his character and his works in the same way if he doesn't have a set apart people. And then something I alluded to in my sermon is, there's gotta be, you gotta have a chosen people set apart as a vessel, so to speak for the Messiah to one day come. He came as a Jew and he came to the Jews.

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And that was ultimately for the good of the world, but that was all part of God's plan to have this people. And if they didn't have the temple, they were at risk of losing all that. So he couldn't let that happen.

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Clay in verses 10 and 11, you pointed out that God withheld blessings from his people for their good.(...) And this is a conversation that's come up a lot through this series,

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the idea of God disciplining his people. I wanna get both of your thoughts on it as well. So this will go to both of you, but how do we discern the difference between God's discipline toward us or what we might see as like natural consequences of choices or just simply like living in the world that we do? How can we kind of discern between those things?

Yeah, go for it. Yeah, that requires, I think it requires wisdom, but also some theological understanding too. So the kinds of curses, so to speak, that God was acting on Israel were actually laid out in the covenant, the Mosaic covenant,

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again, back to the first five books of the Bible. But so God laid out

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God laid out blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience.

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And some of the curses he laid out are specifically being fulfilled or manifested here in Haggai.(...) Now, we are not under the law, the Mosaic law or the old covenant anymore because Christ fulfilled all the requirements of the law and entered, ushered in a new covenant in him.

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And so we have all, he is entitled to and deserving of all the blessings of obedience from the old covenant, he earned them. And then we now have access to the fulfillment of all of those, which is ultimately eternal life in him. Every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places is ours in Christ.

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And that's through faith in him and our union with him in his spirit.(...) And so we're not, because we're not under the old covenant, the law anymore, we don't necessarily experience

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God's wrath in the same way, we don't. So if there's a drought, a famine, the rains don't come or whatever, we can't look at that and go, oh, this is like God's upset with us. This is God's judgment upon us because we're not under that system anymore.(...) However,(...) we know from Romans 8 that God works all things together(...) according to the good of those who love him who are called according to his purpose. And then thereafter says that that good is that we be conformed into the image of his son.

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And so like God is working in and through everything. And we know from elsewhere in scripture that nothing happens outside of him, ordaining it and allowing it, enabling it, et cetera. But not only does he allow everything to happen or everything to happen, but he's working in everything that happens for the ultimate good of his people. And that good is to make them more like Jesus. And that doesn't always mean that we get like happy and comfortable and fun things.(...) Sometimes it's in the very hard things of life,(...) which are just our experience, like you mentioned natural consequences. They might be the natural consequences of our own decision. They might just be the life experiences of a fallen world or living in fallen sin corrupted bodies.

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We experience all those things, but God works in them to make us more like Jesus, to make us more humble, to make us more gentle, to increase our faith in God, to make us more loving essentially. So that's a long and windy answer, but hopefully shed some light on that. Maybe Jeremiah has some additional thoughts.

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I was just thinking like Romans eight,(...) God works together for good.

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But like I think about how it should actually cause us to like long for his return. I think of further in Romans eight where he just says creation groans for just his return.

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For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together and the pains of childbirth until now. And like knowing that things are not as they should be.(...) And like when you think about like, how should we discern all these things? I think that we can know if our actions are sinful or not. And so like if they're not sinful, like we should not get down on that. If they are, then we should obviously confess those to God. If we've sinned against someone else, it should lead us to seek to repentance and seek reconciliation.

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But it should ultimately also lead us to long for his return because things are not as they should be.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

(...) Yeah. And I think part of that conversation needs to be the indwelling of the Holy Spirit too, right? Like that is a large part of his role in our lives to convict us of sin, whereas that wasn't necessarily happening in the same way at that point.

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Anyway, yeah, that's an interesting conversation.

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Jeremiah, you asked the question, I assume rhetorically, but I want you to answer it.

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Am I living for what is eternal or am I living for what is temporary?

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And I wanna just have you kind of explain like what do each of these paths actually produce in a person's life?

(...) I can't help but think about where Jesus talks about a kingdom that is to come, like storing up treasures in Matthew 6. So Matthew 6, 19 says, "Do not lay up for yourself treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy,(...) where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourself treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

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And this is a memory verse from such a long time ago, but like this is one that I keep coming back to to just remind me of like, if I'm building my kingdom here, what's ultimately going to happen to it?

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Like it talks about here where moth and rust destroy,

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it's not going to last. I buy the newest greatest piece of technology, it's not going to last, it's gonna break. I buy a brand new car, at some point, things are going to break down. Like they can, it never ceases to amaze me how anything that I think is going to truly satisfy,

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anything that I really try to find my identity in, let's say for instance, it's in music.

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Let's say for instance, it's trying to be the next big Christian music artist.

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Once you get to that top stage, it doesn't satisfy.(...) It never really leads to anything that is worth it. Whereas like Jesus reminds us, but store up for yourselves, lay up for yourself treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal. Like these things are eternal, these things are gonna last, these things are truly going to satisfy because that's where our heart is, where our treasure is, that's where our heart is. And because like ultimately when you look at those things where he's getting at is you get Jesus, you get what we were created to be when we store up ourselves treasures in heaven.(...) And so this is what comes to mind when I was thinking about am I living for what is eternal versus am I living for what is temporary.

(...) Yeah, and just a few verses later, I'm really glad you brought up Matthew six, Jeremiah, because there's a few verses after what you quoted.(...) Jesus says,(...) "Do not be anxious saying, what shall we eat? Or what shall we drink? Or what shall we wear? For the Gentiles seek after all these things and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all, but seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added to you." And that really sums up Haggai one because they were seeking material things first, namely their houses.

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But if they had sought God's house,(...) then ultimately, God's telling them what the difficulty they were experiencing was because of their neglect.(...) So they would have gotten the material things from God's blessing, their obedience,

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but more profoundly than that, and this is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus,

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you build the temple and you get God, well, the temple is Christ. And ultimately, if you trust in Christ and give your faith to the Lord, you get God, you get him living in you, and now your body is a temple because you have the Holy Spirit living within you.

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Clay, one of your main points was God's people are assured of their status as his people when they obey his word.

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You referenced 1 Samuel 16.7, it says man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.

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For someone examining their own life, what are some evidences of genuine obedience from the heart versus kind of merely obedience through duty?

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Yeah, well, I mean, it starts with what you believe,(...) and so I really wanted to emphasize that this obedience is both heart level and action oriented, but you gotta get the order right. And so you obey the Lord in your heart by submitting to him in humility and in trusting your life to him.(...) And that is you're trusting the person in the work of Jesus Christ, his work on the cross on your behalf, his righteous life lived for you, his death died for you, and his resurrection that promises you eternal life in him.(...) That's who and what we're believing in and trusting and giving ourselves to at a heart level. And then if you really believe that, then you believe that you were bought with a price, and so now we ought to glorify God in our bodies. We're not our own, we were bought.

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And yes, it's an obligation, there's a guest preacher here one time, Steve DeWitt, who coined the phrase oblatunity.(...) It's an obligation, but it's an opportunity to worship, it's an opportunity to respond in thanksgiving and worship of the Lord and gratitude(...) and live out the things that you believe and live for him. So he calls you to love others and you demonstrate that love for others. And that looks like self-sacrifice, that looks like thinking of others ahead of yourself, et cetera.

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Other evidences of genuine faith, I think that was the question around the question there. I think of the fruit of the spirit. So if you believe those things and it's genuine,(...) then the Holy Spirit comes to live in you and he manifests his fruit. So he produces the fruit and it's manifest in you for others to see.(...) And that fruit is love, joy, peace,(...) patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. So if you're manifesting those things

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and Lord willing and by his grace, as you walk with him, you'll be manifesting them in increasing measure. In other words, you'll be growing in Christ.

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That should give you some confidence that you are in Christ. And I think John and the gospel writers and Paul, I don't think they wanted people to be confused, like, am I a Christian or not? Like, I think they wanted it to be pretty clear and hey, you believe these things and you live them out and you ought to have great assurance that you're in Christ.

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And I see that too, I mean, just pastorally,

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I think about officiating a funeral or attending funerals and you just, for somebody that loved the Lord, it just is clear.

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We're not the judge of anyone's heart, only God is the judge, but when somebody has walked faithfully with him, there really isn't a doubt and everybody's rejoicing that they're with the Lord now.

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Yeah, so, and then maybe there's times where it's not as clear or there is some doubt, but that's when you just, you give it up to God, the judge, and acknowledge that you're not him.

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Yeah, and I think you're right, that's really good. And that's one side of it. I would say also we could have assurance of salvation, we could be saved, but yet also do things at times,(...) not from a pure heart, but do it from this kind of...

I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, right.

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What?

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So I guess, and it kind of brings me back to like,(...) this idea that shows up in the book, consider your ways, right? And you guys both spent time on that.

No, I actually didn't. Okay.

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This was pointed out to me.

Did you not?

Yeah, correct, yeah. This was pointed out to me by an elder of our church immediately after my sermon. He goes, "You didn't say anything about consider your ways."(...) I was like, "Yeah, you're right, sorry?"

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And then I get home and I'm eager to listen to Jeremiah and I open up our sermon podcast and I see the title of Jeremiah's sermon is Consider Your Ways. And I was like, "Dang." Like, "Well, that guy should go down to Fort Madison next time or just download, I'll have to send him Jeremiah's podcast."

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His sermon, but yeah, no, so I did the same thing.

I guess I just filled in the blanks there, all right. Fair enough.

It was not like any big intentional move on my part. I just had different points of focus and had to make editorial decisions and did what I did.

Yeah, but I would say that like, through your sermon, you really do hit on the question that is at hand, the question that God is confronting his people with, like, and yeah, consider your ways. Like, I just think that that phrase comes out,

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specifically consider, it says it in a bunch of different ways throughout.

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And like, that is the biggest question throughout the entire book or the biggest point that God is trying to make. And I think it's honestly the point that he's trying to get us to think about constantly.

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Yeah, good.

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So we did have one submitted question and Jeremiah, you were the only one that ventured into chapter two. Oh no. I'm guessing Clay has something to say about this too. So it has to do with the signet ring at the end of chapter two.(...) So, yeah,(...) so it ends with, on that day declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Sheol Teal, I think, declares the Lord and make you like a signet ring, for I've chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.

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The question had to do with that reference to the ring. First, can you kind of explain like what it is and what's the significance of the imagery here?

Yeah,

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so when I was studying this,

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it's interesting that it ends with that and you're like, what is that? And so when I was studying it,

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ancient kings use these signet rings and it really was to show authority and honor and ownership.

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It was truly a ring with a unique emblem on it with a flat surface and they would usually use it to seal letters or documents with soft wax.

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And it just,

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when I think about it, it's kind of like a notary,

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where it's like, this is official.

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So that's what the signet ring is and why this was significant was,

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and I brought this out, this was really to kind of encourage Zerubbabel,

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that even though the Israelites had sinned and had rejected God, God was still using that line and Zerubbabel was going to play a part in that.

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The interesting thing about that is that it,

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maybe the God's people back then were thinking, probably thinking how was Zerubbabel going to be part of it and was he truly the means of salvation? Well, absolutely not, but it points ahead to one of Zerubbabel's ancestors,(...) who is Jesus,

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how he is God's son and God's servant, and I can't help but think about how God views Jesus, think about his baptism, and he says,

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this is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. And just knowing how Jesus described how he was there to bring glory to God. Like he does nothing,(...) he does everything to bring God glory and think about the fact that he, that he was the means by which he would save,

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save his people from their sin. Going back to John one, behold the lame of God who takes away the sin of the world. And so there's a lot of significance, like from Zerubbabel being this foreshadowing of truly the means of salvation, the means of God's glory being on display. And so I just thought that that was a really cool connection.

Mm-hmm, yeah, perfect, fantastic.(...) I'm just gonna fill in a little context here.

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So Jeremiah had the nail on the head that Zerubbabel points forward to Christ, and Zerubbabel was a descendant of David and really Zerubbabel and then Jesus are the fulfillment, Jesus ultimately is the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant, God's promises to David, and you can find these in second Samuel, chapter seven, this is the Lord speaking to David(...) through the prophet Nathan, and I'll just read these first few verses here, or these few verses from that chapter.(...) When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.(...) He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son.(...) When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.

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And then it says in accordance with all these words, in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David. So it's just that the establishing of David's kingdom and throne forever, and Zerubbabel is a descendant of David, and Jesus is a descendant of David and Zerubbabel.(...) And everything that I just read is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus. And even if you're curious about, well, Jesus never sinned, it says, "When he commits iniquity, I'll discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the son of men." Well, Jesus didn't sin, but he took on the sins of the world, as Jeremiah just alluded to. So in that way, he did receive the stripes of the sons of men, and he did so on our behalf.

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Yeah, that's really good.

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We'll end with this one, but both of your sermons ended by pointing us to Christ, obviously.(...) If someone listening to this now realizes that they've spent years building their own kingdom instead of God's, where should they begin? And that's a broad question, but what's the first faithful step toward reordering those priorities?

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Repent.

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I mean, that's what Peter said in Acts two, I think, at the end of Acts two, when he preaches the gospel to the gathered people and they ask him, "What now?" And he says, "Repent."

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So repentance is just like this heart attitude of remorse and sorrow over your sin. And it's a turning from that in your heart and an entrusting yourself, turning to the Lord.

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And it's a heart posture, an act of humility.

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And God's word says in James and also in 1 Peter, "If you humble yourself before the Lord,(...) he will exalt you." And so, yeah, I think it just begins with, if you have that realization that you're describing there, Breton, like I've been living for myself, I've been living for the world, et cetera, and you wanna change that, well, then yeah, you need to repent and you need to turn from that in your heart and trust yourself, give your faith, your life,

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to the Lord Jesus to save you. And that'll start a whole new life in him.

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I just think about the title of this series called "Return to Me."

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And each one of these minor prophets, that's the message that they're calling, and God is calling.

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He desires all to come to saving faith. And so he constantly is confronting us with these. And so you may feel confronted.

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And then like, what do we do in light of that? We repent.

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And then we turn to him and we believe. We repent and believe. We return to God, which is what he ultimately desires and what ultimately is gonna bring him glory just through that story of salvation.

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Okay, thanks guys.(...) Appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you for having us.

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If you guys have any questions, feel free to send an email, ask at furtherpodcast.com.(...) Talk to you next time.

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